What does a football 'purist' mean?

[choda]

I hear a lot of talk about the 'purist' in football terms. But what the hell does that mean? To me there is a right way and a wrong way to play the game.

You set out a team to play winning football... in every sense of the word. It gives the most rewards in every way.

If you take any football team that is remembered... really remembered... they all played this kind of football. Lot's of managers have a 'pragmatic' approach to football. They believe that smothering the game, and never getting the ball down and passing it will give them better results. That it is the best way to play to win, but it isn't.

Take Chelsea... how much money have they spent... how much do they spend on wages, but still they have failed in europe. They meet their limitations at that level, and it ain't limitations in playing staff or funding. It's limitations of the managers philosophy. Anybody who understands the game knows they were iniallated by Barca two years in a row. The first time they got through because Barca were suspect at the back and absolutely gifted them three goals. But both times Barca completely dominated possesion, Chelsea give up too much posession in Europe, because they don't play constructively.

This Barcalona team for me is the epitome of how the game should be played. It is class to watch, to play and it gives better results. They also bring in the fans, to the ground and to the tv screen. And after all, the games lifeblood is the fans.

The only exception I can think of to this is if you don't have the players and you try any way of playing to win. That to me is okay... but it might not even be the best way then either.

But let me ask you this: Chelsea won the premiership the last two seasons... does anybody really give a ****? Boring... who cares... shite football. Who'll remember them in twenty years, nobody except Chelsea fans. If everybody played like Chelsea the grounds would be half empty.

That's why I love spurs, we always want to do it the right way, like Brazil. I know there are some Bill Nicholsen quotes on this aswell. He said something like, 'you gotta bring in the fans and excite them, otherwise what's the point'.

I love this club.

[suBerb]

Barca's manager is Dutch, our manager too...

[choda]

Yes, I love what the dutch bring to football.

[spurs61]

I would describe a football purist thus;

Any person who would rather see their team lose 4-3 in a stunning game of football than grind out a one nil victory.

i.e, the performance is more important than the result. If you belive the game is about entertainment rather than victory then you are a football purist.

I consider myself a football purist, why else would I go and watch Barnet when Spurs aren't at home; or go three ways on a Watford season ticket just for the hell of it? Football is not my life but it is integral and is part of my identity. I have always asked myself, "are you a football fan first or a Spurs fan first?" I am still unable to conclusivley answer that query.

Nice question choda, if a bit late on a Friday afternoon!

[JJ]

A purist is someone who's love for how the game is played outweighs their desire to win.

As far as spurs61 question "are you a football fan first or a Spurs fan first?" is concerned, i know my answer...

I'm a football fan first, and that's why i'm a Spurs fan.

[highlander]

I'm a football fan first, and that's why i'm a Spurs fan.


i love that, thats a great answer

[JJ]

i love that, thats a great answer

Yeah, i thought that was quite special. ;)

[spurs61]

I'm a football fan first, and that's why i'm a Spurs fan.

Beautiful, just gorgeous! :D

We are the white knights of football.

[hastingsyid]

can u feel the love

[Keanoldinho]

Beautiful, just gorgeous! :D

We are the white knights of football.


we're the Klu Klux Klan of football I think not:eek:

[choda]

Well... I want the results too... and I think doing the right things will get you them. If it doesn't then it is because you lack players, but at least you are doing the right things.

For example, I always admired Strachen's Coventry. Every year he lost his best players, but he never shit himself... okay he got a little angry at times (but even that was very entertaining). But he never resoted to lumping it. Eventually he couldn't keep them up anymore, but he did really well in a sinking ship. He stuck to his guns and proved his way right when he went on to Southampton and got them into Europe and high up the league... and lately he pissed on Rangers with Celtic.

Chelsea do have their merits, no doubt. They do all the right things when they don't have the ball, but are shocking really when they have it. It's only the actual quality of the players and the organisation that muddles them through the premiership. In my opinion too the physicality and ability to counter attack in the premiership suits them down to the ground. They're such an ugly side. You can't beat Barcelona playing like that.

For me the teams that are doing all the right things in the prem and have quality are: Man U, Liverpool and Spurs. Chelsea, for me, are only ahead because of the big leap in quality and the depth and quality of the squad. But the chasing pack is improving it's quality all the time.

This may seem like anti Chelsea and Arsenal sentiment but this is purely about football. I mentioned on another thread how I describe Arsenal's style. Though they get the ball down and play I think it is very flawed and only suits the 200 mph prem.

And I'd like to say that a lot games sky sports try to say are exciting, I personally think most of the time are shite. Sure, they're end to end and so on, but they're usually scrappy 200 mph games, with not a lot of real quality.

Don't get me wrong, I like the prem and it is full of technically good players, but the physicality and ridiculous pace for me ruins a lot of games. Technically, in terms of real high class football, I think Spain and Italy are a step above.

[suBerb]

Don't get me wrong, I like the prem and it is full of technically good players, but the physicality and ridiculous pace for me ruins a lot of games. Technically, in terms of real high class football, I think Spain and Italy are a step above.


I defended a similar position in another thread

I'm afraid whether Berby and Zokora will be able to accomodate to premiership...A technically excellent player like Veron was a flop...And Berby and Zokora are very skillful

[choda]

I defended a similar position in another thread

I'm afraid whether Berby and Zokora will be able to accomodate to premiership...A technically excellent player like Veron was a flop...And Berby and Zokora are very skillful

Yea, it's always a worry, but I'd say they're both big lads who can mix it up.

Zokora, for example, I think will be much more suited to the prem than even Carrick. I think Carrick is actually more suited to International football, Europe and other leagues. He's very like Veron, I think, in that way. Though I think he's slightly more physical than Veron, but Veron would take a hold of the passing much more than Carrick.

Veron likes the pace slow and then to speed up every so often. The prem was too hell for leather for him. He didn't fancy it physically at all, and he would like to have more time to knock it about.

He's a class act in Italy. It's really amazing.

[JJ]

I defended a similar position in another thread

I'm afraid whether Berby and Zokora will be able to accomodate to premiership...A technically excellent player like Veron was a flop...And Berby and Zokora are very skillful

Veron lacked the workrate for the premiership. The 90 minutes are physically alot tougher than playing on the continent.

Zokora and Berbatov, however, seem to be real athletes.

[Welsh Spur]

Don't get me wrong, I like the prem and it is full of technically good players, but the physicality and ridiculous pace for me ruins a lot of games. Technically, in terms of real high class football, I think Spain and Italy are a step above.
The Premiership is the best league in the world, the physicality and pace combined with the technical players in the league make it the best to watch. Football fans all over the world watch the premiership for this very reason.

I would go as far as to say that the premiership is the most watched league in the world also, I mean given the popularity of teams like United and Spurs abroad, for example in Japan/Korea. Who the **** can name a Grampus 8 player? ...if you get my point.

In Spain and Italy the game is too slow and there are too many pussies, with the exception of a few, like Gattuso now, or Luis Enrique back in the 90's.

But this is just my opinion, and I think-no, I expect some to disagree.

[choda]

The Premiership is the best league in the world, the physicality and pace combined with the technical players in the league make it the best to watch. Football fans all over the world watch the premiership for this very reason.

I would go as far as to say that the premiership is the most watched league in the world also, I mean given the popularity of teams like United and Spurs abroad, for example in Japan/Korea. Who the **** can name a Grampus 8 player? ...if you get my point.

In Spain and Italy the game is too slow and there are too many pussies, with the exception of a few, like Gattuso now, or Luis Enrique back in the 90's.

But this is just my opinion, and I think-no, I expect some to disagree.


Well... most people who watch football don't actually understand the game. They just want excitement... hell for leather stuff... box to box and lots of what seems like great action. The premiership delivers this in spades. I'd say it is the most watched, but that doesn't mean it is the best... not at all.

The game is slower in the Champions League and in International football too, is that of a lesser quality? Of course not, and it's not full of pussies either.

I watch Spanish football every weekend during the season and the football is magnificant. It embarasses the prem in terms of pure football. Personally, as a 'purist', I find it the most entertaining by far.

The best football by far in the world right now is played by teams like Argentina (who in my opinion had the best chance of the teams in WC to win, but their otherwise good manager totally ****ed up the Germany game) and Barcelona. Far more teams in Spain and Italy play football like them than in the prem. I don't think you can deny that.

I think the English media (particularly sky) is a lot responsible for the myth of the best league in the world. It is the same reason why people think that England have some sort of golden generation, when they are no better than previous England teams. Lampard the second best player in the world, give me a ****ing break.

Erikssen was a joke, but it wasn't all him. It was even more dismal than that, because the players are overated too. Everybody aside from Rooney and Lennon. Brooking is giving out about the technical ability of English youngsters, and he is right to do so.

Don't get me wrong, I think England had an outside chance of wc glory with a great manager. A manager who didn't give into hype and picked the right players, and recognised that some of his players had limitations that nobody was talking about: Like for example his whole first choice four in midfield. He did still have a good squad, but Sven was awful.

I love watching spurs in the prem or any game, but if you gave me a neutral choice of Arsenal v Chelsea or Real v Barca, I'd definitely pick the latter. Real v Barca games are of a higher order of football.

[suBerb]

Real v Barca games are of a higher order of football.


That's not true. Real v Barca games are of the highest order of football.

Choda, I really enjoy your posts mate.

[Shuggie13]

'A purist is one who desires that a particular item remain true to its essence and free from adulterating or diluting influences. The term may be used in almost any field, and can be applied either to the self or to others. Use of the term may be either pejorative or complimentary, depending on context. Because the appellation depends on subjective notions of what is "pure" as opposed to "adulterating" as applied to any particular item, conflict can arise both as to whether a person so labeled is actually a purist and as to whether that is desirable.'

Key words: adulterating and diluting.

In the World Cup, Argentina for the Purist, Portugal adulterating and diluting the beautifull game.

As previous posts have stated are Chelsea are not for the purist. As they have adulterated the game in so many ways, diluting the transfer market in the sense that they buy who they want for silly money and then leave talent like SWP on the bench.

Arsenal I have to admit is a team in some respects for the purist. Bear me out on this one. The style Wenger has played over the years has at times been one for the attacking purist football fan. Highbury like the Lane represented a ground and a club structure for the purist. Wenger has also unearthed undiscovered talent and made them into star players (albeit them being foreign). Where the conflict arises with Arsenal is they are not for the English football fan purist. Stifling english talent, fielding a team of oversea players and generally at times in their history (circa Graham years) extremely dull and negative. And of course Assbumming Grove is now their home.

So, as stated in many a thread our beloved Spurs epitomise a football pureists team, Liverpool too (although the foreign players conflicts slightly), Man U and West Ham too.

[fluke]

I defended a similar position in another thread

I'm afraid whether Berby and Zokora will be able to accomodate to premiership...A technically excellent player like Veron was a flop...And Berby and Zokora are very skillful

It's not just about the football. Some players can't adapt to the culture. Poor bastard Veron had to live in Manchester for f*cks sake. Couldn't pay me enough. Both men you mentioned have played and lived in NW Europe. They will be fine in London, I'd bet the house on it. Hope we pick up a left midfielder and a back up fourth striker though.

[suBerb]

It's not just about the football. Some players can't adapt to the culture. Poor bastard Veron had to live in Manchester for f*cks sake. Couldn't pay me enough. Both men you mentioned have played and lived in NW Europe. They will be fine in London, I'd bet the house on it. Hope we pick up a left midfielder and a back up fourth striker though.

a good point

[mjbmedia]

think its fairer to say the premiership is the most competitive in the world, more often a lowly placed team will truly compete with the top teams , often the game isnt over til the bastard in the black blows his whistle ,
Spain (la Liga) is catching up in the latter department defintely of not giving up on the game until its finished ,
italy (serie A) seem to settle on whatever the score is after 60 minutes and with the current afflictions you have to be dubious on it for the moment.

skills wise ,yes spain is better , sth america better still tho the latter is rife with cheating in all forms. but then if you play a game of football at 50% pace the players will have more time to control the ball and do their stuff so they will look better, how many can come to the premiership and still do their stuff at 100% pace???? not many thats why they skulk off again to spain or italy,
so whilst you are saying the premiership is not the most skillful, you have to balance it with the speed at which things have to be done, would Zidane be able to do all his fancy flicks, ditto ROnaldinho in the EPL ?? not as much, theyd be tackled or fouled before they had a third touch and then people wouldnt be drooling over them, theyd be moaning at them for constantly losing possession.
the portuguese Ronaldo, Gazza, Ginola etc do/done it at speed with effect too, get fouled and jump up and beat them next time, ZZ and goofy would whinge too much about the treatment they get

[JJ]

It's not just about the football. Some players can't adapt to the culture. Poor bastard Veron had to live in Manchester for f*cks sake. Couldn't pay me enough. Both men you mentioned have played and lived in NW Europe. They will be fine in London, I'd bet the house on it. Hope we pick up a left midfielder and a back up fourth striker though.

But Veron was in London, and still flopped.

As i said before, the Prem is the most competitive league in the world, and unless you have the work rate/ethic to keep up, you just won't succeed.

[Welsh Spur]

Well... most people who watch football don't actually understand the game.
Is this a sly dig?

[choda]

Is this a sly dig?

Not at you mate. But I do think that it is easy when you live in England to get caught up in all the excitement of the most exciting league in the world... which I will agree the prem is.

My best mate lives in London and we had an arguement before the world cup. It went something like this: I said to him 'England will be pants in the world cup because he's going to pick Gerrard and Lampard together and no pace on the right. And because they've right footed cole on the left that midfield will be unbelievebly wooden. Both Gerrard and Lampard can change a game but neither of them will control a game, they've got to put a passer or at least a feeder in there (I suggested Carrick) and some zip on the right (Lennon).' My mate categorically disagreed with me and told me how unreal Lampard and Gerrard are, and how Becks was the man.

Now, I know him, and know that what he was saying had been very influenced by living in England for the past year. He is an intelligent guy, who's played football all his life, and (and I know it's not always synonymous with intelligence) but he also has a masters in law.

I'm just referring to the way the prem is the most covered in Johnny foreign lands, and the way there are probably as many foreign Chelsea fans now as there are Barca fans (their incoming revenue was higher last year then Barca). And I'm not referring to Ireland because we are neighbours, and it's logical that the prem is covered so much here, since our own league is diaboligal. Incidently, the prem makes our league look like rugby.

To me at least, having as many foreign people watching Chelsea games as Barca games is hard to fathom, and the only way I can explain it is that most of these people don't actually understand football.

[choda]

But Veron was in London, and still flopped.

As i said before, the Prem is the most competitive league in the world, and unless you have the work rate/ethic to keep up, you just won't succeed.


I think you're over simplifying to say that Veron failed because he doesn't have the work rate. Ginola, Cantona, Di Canio, Gazza, and Ruud Gullit (as a midfielder) did not have a great work rate but all succeeded in the prem.

I think it can be a factor, as can changing culture, but with Veron I think there was more to it than that.

[suBerb]

Interestingly, in Seria A Veron was by far the better player than Zolla...perhaps he was unhappy in England.

I was surprised that Zolla was so successful in premiership.

[choda]

think its fairer to say the premiership is the most competitive in the world, more often a lowly placed team will truly compete with the top teams , often the game isnt over til the bastard in the black blows his whistle ,
Spain (la Liga) is catching up in the latter department defintely of not giving up on the game until its finished ,
italy (serie A) seem to settle on whatever the score is after 60 minutes and with the current afflictions you have to be dubious on it for the moment.

skills wise ,yes spain is better , sth america better still tho the latter is rife with cheating in all forms. but then if you play a game of football at 50% pace the players will have more time to control the ball and do their stuff so they will look better, how many can come to the premiership and still do their stuff at 100% pace???? not many thats why they skulk off again to spain or italy,
so whilst you are saying the premiership is not the most skillful, you have to balance it with the speed at which things have to be done, would Zidane be able to do all his fancy flicks, ditto ROnaldinho in the EPL ?? not as much, theyd be tackled or fouled before they had a third touch and then people wouldnt be drooling over them, theyd be moaning at them for constantly losing possession.
the portuguese Ronaldo, Gazza, Ginola etc do/done it at speed with effect too, get fouled and jump up and beat them next time, ZZ and goofy would whinge too much about the treatment they get

That's some good points mjbmedia. However, I think one has to ask why is the prem so physical and fast paced? And I think the answer is that the culture of the game here, is in my view, imbalanced towards physicality over technical ability.

Take Spain for example, the balance is on the side of the technical, they basically say, 'were going to keep our shape here and ration our energies for key moments... so we'll let you pass the ball and see what you got (in terms of technical ability)'. The good teams like Barca then do whatever is required, fast, slow, changing the pace quickly or being very patient. But they're always passing the ball beautifully and using lovely technical control and movements. I love that.

That's their culture.

If you look at the higher levels, CL and International there is an even balance there. And other leagues have more of a balance of the two than England aswell, even when the players are inferior.

I think this hurts the English national team in particular, but even the club sides sometimes too (in my view to a lesser extent because of the amount of foriegners playing now). How many times do you see England fail technically at the highest level? I do think a top manager could even overcome this as England do have good players, but he needs to recognise their true abilities and not some fanciful we've got the best players in the world crap.

That's my opinion anyway, and I think that is what Trevor Brooking is getting at aswell.

[suBerb]

so whilst you are saying the premiership is not the most skillful, you have to balance it with the speed at which things have to be done, would Zidane be able to do all his fancy flicks, ditto ROnaldinho in the EPL ?? not as much, theyd be tackled or fouled before they had a third touch and then people wouldnt be drooling over them, theyd be moaning at them for constantly losing possession.



Ronaldinho and Messi made some of their technically best games against arguably the best defence in premiership - chelscum's

Ronaldinho scored 3 goals in 4 games against Chelski. In fact, his scoring record against spanish clubs is not that impressive...

[choda]

Interestingly, in Seria A Veron was by far the better player than Zolla...perhaps he was unhappy in England.

I was surprised that Zolla was so successful in premiership.


Maybe. But Zola wasn't bad in Italy either! He was just so much in the shadow of Roberto Baggio and later Del Piero (where he remained), even when he performed better in the prem.

How many seasons did Veron play in England as a regular? Maybe he just needed time to get used to the pace of the game. Zola commented when he came over that he wasn't going to play his best for months until he got used to the 'unbelievable pace', as he called it.

Referring to foreigners coming into he English game: To be honest I think the really top players can adapt to any type of football; the guys who have the talent and the mental strength will make it work, even if they find it tough to begin with.

[suBerb]

I think that Berby will adapt to EPL not only because he is very skillful but because he's a highly intelligent player. His ability to score many goals ties in with his ability to "read" the game very well, i.e. to take the right positions. Of course, he will need some time.

[choda]

I think that Berby will adapt to EPL not only because he is very skillful but because he's a highly intelligent player. His ability to score many goals ties in with his ability to "read" the game very well, i.e. to take the right positions. Of course, he will need some time.

Yes, I'm not worried about any of our signings. I don't see any potential problems with them. To me Berby looks like another RVN, and I hope it turns out that way.

I love it if we got Riquelme, but if he did come I'd be worried about that one. There's no doubting his ability, but I'm not sure about him mentally. He might not cope in the prem, he doesn't look like he's got great bottle or self belief at times. And these are things he might need if he finds it hard to get used to the unique league that is the prem.

[choda]

'A purist is one who desires that a particular item remain true to its essence and free from adulterating or diluting influences. The term may be used in almost any field, and can be applied either to the self or to others. Use of the term may be either pejorative or complimentary, depending on context. Because the appellation depends on subjective notions of what is "pure" as opposed to "adulterating" as applied to any particular item, conflict can arise both as to whether a person so labeled is actually a purist and as to whether that is desirable.'

Key words: adulterating and diluting.

In the World Cup, Argentina for the Purist, Portugal adulterating and diluting the beautifull game.

As previous posts have stated are Chelsea are not for the purist. As they have adulterated the game in so many ways, diluting the transfer market in the sense that they buy who they want for silly money and then leave talent like SWP on the bench.

Arsenal I have to admit is a team in some respects for the purist. Bear me out on this one. The style Wenger has played over the years has at times been one for the attacking purist football fan. Highbury like the Lane represented a ground and a club structure for the purist. Wenger has also unearthed undiscovered talent and made them into star players (albeit them being foreign). Where the conflict arises with Arsenal is they are not for the English football fan purist. Stifling english talent, fielding a team of oversea players and generally at times in their history (circa Graham years) extremely dull and negative. And of course Assbumming Grove is now their home.

So, as stated in many a thread our beloved Spurs epitomise a football pureists team, Liverpool too (although the foreign players conflicts slightly), Man U and West Ham too.

You know it's a good debate when somebody whips out the dictionary.

You're going too general though mate. I'm purely (if you'll excuse the pun) talking about the actual football. I for one would like to return to some of you're points. But you've opened up another interesting debate or thread there.

[onthejazzin77]

this has been one of ther most interesting threads we have ever had. The question has to be asked why England have only won the world cup once, (and in my opinion winning it at home doesn't count). But then you have to ask why Spain have never won it. Does it have anything to do with our respective leagues? No. Does that mean both countries are purist? No. The game of football pivots on self confidence and belief with a burning desire to win - whatever it takes. But of course there needs to be romance, luck, drama and oh so nearly moments. Without the pain how can you truly enjoy the elation. Which brings me to chelsea - how boring must it be to be a chelsea fan? Knowing that your team is going to win week in week out whoever they play. Where's the drama? Where's the bum clenching phew moments? Of course I want Spurs to win every game but my life would be extremely boring if Spurs won every week 5-0. The novelty would soon wear off. So I think a football purist is someone who loves watching / following football. A purist invests his emotions in the game and respects it and obviously prefers their team to play well and attractively otherwise - whats the point?

[choda]

this has been one of ther most interesting threads we have ever had. The question has to be asked why England have only won the world cup once, (and in my opinion winning it at home doesn't count). But then you have to ask why Spain have never won it. Does it have anything to do with our respective leagues? No. Does that mean both countries are purist? No. The game of football pivots on self confidence and belief with a burning desire to win - whatever it takes. But of course there needs to be romance, luck, drama and oh so nearly moments. Without the pain how can you truly enjoy the elation. Which brings me to chelsea - how boring must it be to be a chelsea fan? Knowing that your team is going to win week in week out whoever they play. Where's the drama? Where's the bum clenching phew moments? Of course I want Spurs to win every game but my life would be extremely boring if Spurs won every week 5-0. The novelty would soon wear off. So I think a football purist is someone who loves watching / following football. A purist invests his emotions in the game and respects it and obviously prefers their team to play well and attractively otherwise - whats the point?

'A burning desire to win', a very good point. And in my view very explanitory of Spain's failure as a national side. With them, I do actually believe it has nothing to do with their league. I think (and this is what they say themselves too), it is down to the way spain is a very fractionated country. They feel they are representing their country when they play for Barca (catalonia), or Bilboa (Basque), etc. There are many areas like this in Spain who see themselves as seperate. And in my opinion this is why even when they look like a fantastic side, when it comes to the crunch, they just don't have that togetherness, that special team spirit that will win you matches when the going gets tough (as it always will in the latter stages).

With England on the other hand I do believe the league has a huge bearing on their lack of success, because English players don't lack desire or togetherness, but they do get found wanting technically. And not just in the world cup, have they ever won the euros?

You made some interesting points, but the game pivots on more than just self confidence and the burning desire to win. Sure, it is important, of course, but you have to analyse the game on a whole. Spain is the league of the purist, do you watch the kind of football they play there?