What I think Jol should do...

[choda]

Hey fellow spur,

It's going to be interesting fellas... this season will be interesting. Its hard to know what we need... in a way.

For me Jol is one of the brightest men in football. Time and time again he impresses me with his knowledge and intelligence. Let's see what he does.

I personally feel sorting the fullbacks and left wing out is most important. This is where we can really STRENGTHEN. Stalteri is a good old battler, but lacks a bit of quality... bit like the Neviller (Gaz) used to be. Lee I suspect could (if he settles to prem) be a dynamite right full. He does my head in (on the left) when he constantly goes back on his right.

Left wing: I reckon buy top class or leave it for now. Use a new system or play three mids and one winger... or if one of the young lads emerges play him (maybe Ziegler).

Up front: I'd personally like to see us sell Defoe for 15 million and buy a top class or potential top class striker as cover, who can both play well with Berb or Keano. Don't fancy Defoe because his movement is really poor... lacks a football brain. He's only good when he gets the ball, but thats not good enough to be a world class/at least a top class small player (like Keano). Gotta have terrific movement or you'll be marked out... as he is in so many games. Ever seen him at the very highest level... playing for England. He is anonymous in almost every game. He's not good enough. Sorry, I know a lot of you will disagree.

The fourth striker could be one of the emerging youngsters like the Czech Jol reckons could do a Rooney or maybe Barney.

Centre Back: Micah Richiards and Ayala would both be quality signings. And I've a feeling both will happen and spurs will change to a wing backs system.

Anyways COYS,

Choda

Ps. I reckon Reid could make a really quality central midfielder in a three (like if Jol plays new system). Honestly, he's really talented. Ever seen him playing for Ireland... he's had some absolute stormers. He was man of the match against Brazil, in central midfield!

Got unbelievable vision and passing ability. He's just rubbish out on the left because he's got no pace. He can't work any good crossing positions. In the middle though he would see and play the passes, I promise you. I wonder if Carrick, Zokora and the talented lardster would work?

Pss. Go to youtube.com and type in "Dave Chapelle Rick James". Watch the 13min video. Its one of the funniest things I've ever seen in my life.

[highlander]

firstly welcome to the forum . secondly you have some very interesting views there. i have previously suggested Reid in a more central role and its something i hope we see in the pre season build up.

[derek zoolander]

Im rick james bitch, enjoy yourself


i wouldnt say defoe is world class but he more than capable in the prem and we should keep him as id hate to play against him if he went to newcastle for example, he is always capable of creating a goal from nothing like he did against portmouth last year, a little greedy but all good strikers are.

ayala is too old for my liking and would expect to play every week, if it were cannavaro it would be a different story but ayala isnt even in the league below.

richards would be a great signing but dont see him leaving for under £8m which is a bit much but you never know.

[Danishspurs]

You got some interesting points, but I wouldn't sell Defoe and I promise you we will see the best of him next season.. I wouldn't be in MJ position when he has to choose which strikers to start with so many talented players in that position...

[choda]

Ya... I hear what ye're saying about Defoe and Ayala. But here's my take: Ayala we would get cheap (contract is up in six or twelve months added to his age). And surely he is worth the risk of one or two years wages. He's been so good for so long. He also had a fantastic world cup. I'd say there's another year or two in him.

I think saying he's two leagues below Cannavaro is unfair. Granted Cannavaro was sensational this world cup... and I reckon he's the best centre half I've ever seen... but Ayala is regarded and has been one of the best in the world for a at least a decade. He's been a proper player too.

As for Defoe... unlike most of his current bashers, (who I'd wager are just having a knee jerk to poor form), I've not liked him for quite some time. About a year and a half ago it just suddenly dawned on me that to the naked eye he looks great... but I think there are important elements to his game missing. And it is extremely rare that you see a player massively gain in football intelligence.

The only recent example I can think of now is Joe Cole, who now has half a brain.

I reckon that's a good shout to try Andy Reid centrally in the pre-season. Definetely worth a look.

I really feel sorry for him if he looks at the spurs forums. Every day there is some mention of lardboy, lardass, fatboy, fatty, the pie eater... the pie-factory eater etc. And the funny is everybody knows exactly who is being referred to.

I must admit I've engaged in this a bit too. It's funny.

Maybe it would be good if he viewed the forums actually. I mean seriously, he's a professional footballer, can't he lose a stone?

Choda

[peterc]

Ya... I hear what ye're saying about Defoe and Ayala. But here's my take: Ayala we would get cheap (contract is up in six or twelve months added to his age). And surely he is worth the risk of one or two years wages. He's been so good for so long. He also had a fantastic world cup. I'd say there's another year or two in him.

I think saying he's two leagues below Cannavaro is unfair. Granted Cannavaro was sensational this world cup... and I reckon he's the best centre half I've ever seen... but Ayala is regarded and has been one of the best in the world for a at least a decade. He's been a proper player too.

As for Defoe... unlike most of his current bashers, (who I'd wager are just having a knee jerk to poor form), I've not liked him for quite some time. About a year and a half ago it just suddenly dawned on me that to the naked eye he looks great... but I think there are important elements to his game missing. And it is extremely rare that you see a player massively gain in football intelligence.

The only recent example I can think of now is Joe Cole, who now has half a brain.

I reckon that's a good shout to try Andy Reid centrally in the pre-season. Definetely worth a look.

I really feel sorry for him if he looks at the spurs forums. Every day there is some mention of lardboy, lardass, fatboy, fatty, the pie eater... the pie-factory eater etc. And the funny is everybody knows exactly who is being referred to.

I must admit I've engaged in this a bit too. It's funny.

Maybe it would be good if he viewed the forums actually. I mean seriously, he's a professional footballer, can't he lose a stone?

Choda
Totally agree with you Choda, I have been stating for a while that Defoe is over rated, If Man U are offering £15M, sell him, quite a few italians strikers are now available on the transfer market.

[laspur]

I do agree Defoe may be overrated and selling him would be the right thing to do. However as time has passed and the season is about to start, losing Carrick and Defoe may screw us in the long run. Defoe leaves now we need to find 2 more strikers quickly. We can handle finding 1 but 2 will be pushing it. Anyway Defoe should get another shot, he deserves it. Plus there is always the transfer window in Jan.

[sundancer]

Sorry guys can not agree with you about Defoe, he is a natural finisher who tried to become more of a team player last season, we should just let him do what he is good at i.e. putting the ball in the net which he will do a lot this season, I hope its for us.

[choda]

Sundancer,

I never said Defoe wasn't a good finisher. But there's more to being a top striker than finishing. You gotta be able to work positions and space for yourself. This also opens up space for other players. Watch how much better our ability to open teams up and overall performance is when Keano plays instead of Defoe. He also links the play better.

Also, did you see how many poacher goals Keano got last season? The kind of goals other quality goal scorers like Mike Owen, Ronaldo, Ruud etc. get all the time, but Defoe rarely does. These guys aren't just good finishers they also have great movement and anticipation.

I know what your saying about him trying to improve his link or team play last year (when playing with Mido), but that's irrelevant to this arguement. It doesn't stop him being where he should be when he should be there... just like there is a time to drop off and get the ball to feet and link the play. Keano you've probably noticed tried to improve his link play aswell (and did considerably), but it hasn't stopped him being in the right places and making good runs when that's needed.

I'm a huge Keano fan. I've always thought that with top class manager day in day put he'd really shine. The last time he had that was at Coventry, where he looked like one of the best teenagers in the game, and earned a 13 million pound move to Inter. He just needed someone to focus all that raw talent.

Choda

Ps. And I know a small guy can be more of a runner in behind or more of a link player, but the fact is, in my opinion, Defoe does neither well. And I think this will cost him and his teams goals as a result.

[Shuggie13]

Charlie Murphy! What did the 5 fingers say to the face?

Slap!

I first saw the Dave Chappelle/ RIck James skit about 2.5 years ago in the States. I watched it about 20 times and pissed myself laughing each time. You have to check out the Charlie Murphy/Prince story (it's on YouTube too).

Enjoy Yourself, it's a celebration. I'm Rick James bitch!

[spurs61]

As for Defoe... unlike most of his current bashers, (who I'd wager are just having a knee jerk to poor form), I've not liked him for quite some time. About a year and a half ago it just suddenly dawned on me that to the naked eye he looks great... but I think there are important elements to his game missing. And it is extremely rare that you see a player massively gain in football intelligence.

The only recent example I can think of now is Joe Cole, who now has half a brain.

I unreservedly agree with you. Your previous summary of Defoe's failings are spot on.

[peterc]

I unreservedly agree with you. Your previous summary of Defoe's failings are spot on.
Finally it seems that I'm not the only one who thinks that Defoe is not that brilliant, as many picture him to be.

[Danishspurs]

Finally it seems that I'm not the only one who thinks that Defoe is not that brilliant, as many picture him to be.
I'll bet in half a year you will all be singing his praise, when he has at least scored 10 in the league and a few crackers in the UEFA cup.. I could be wrong though:p

[peterc]

I'll bet in half a year you will all be singing his praise, when he has at least scored 10 in the league and a few crackers in the UEFA cup.. I could be wrong though:p
Don't get me wrong , I wish he does improve, but after last season's performance, I doubt it. A prolific striker normally tends to improve from season to season, knowing that he changed his way of play, a prolific striker knows when to be in the right place at the right time, something that Defoe does not seem to master.

[Chinaman]

Goal poachers hit their form in a flurry and the greatest of them all, like Jimmy Greaves also had some barren spells. They can be affected by spells out of the side and need time to get their timing right when restored to the team. The tell-tale sign of when poachers have lost it is when they don't score or miss simple chances anymore; as that is when they've lost the scent for goal. If they are missing, that means they are still getting in the right positions and it is luck that's deserted them.

I still remember in the early 70s when Peter Osgood was the top scorer one season, he said that there was so much luck involved in scoring that at times in seemed that all he had to do was touch the ball and it was a goal, and that most of the so-called newsreel goals were unintended as such as all he did was smack the ball in the general direction of goal and hadn't had a clue whether it went over or in the corner of the net.

So I'm confident that Defoe will regain his goal-scoring form as he is the only natural poacher in the English game behind the Owens of 4 years ago.

[peterc]

Goal poachers hit their form in a flurry and the greatest of them all, like Jimmy Greaves also had some barren spells. They can be affected by spells out of the side and need time to get their timing right when restored to the team. The tell-tale sign of when poachers have lost it is when they don't score or miss simple chances anymore; as that is when they've lost the scent for goal. If they are missing, that means they are still getting in the right positions and it is luck that's deserted them.

I still remember in the early 70s when Peter Osgood was the top scorer one season, he said that there was so much luck involved in scoring that at times in seemed that all he had to do was touch the ball and it was a goal, and that most of the so-called newsreel goals were unintended as such as all he did was smack the ball in the general direction of goal and hadn't had a clue whether it went over or in the corner of the net.

So I'm confident that Defoe will regain his goal-scoring form as he is the only natural poacher in the English game behind the Owens of 4 years ago.
I hope you are right, but I do have my doubts.

[Welsh Spur]

Football fans are a fickle bunch.

Defoe sold now? Are you crazy? The guy is going to use this season, no matter where he's playing, to show that he is meant to start for England. The summer disappointment will unleash him further....he's been electric in pre-season...expect it to continue.

[Hayes Massive]

Well done Welsh Spur.Defoe should not be sold he has everything to prove & he will prove to all the doubters what a very good scorer he is.
Everyone seems to forget just how young he is & hopefully now that we have the right balance to the team he will do what he does best & that is score goals.It is no coincidence that £15million is being quoted a hell of a lot of money for someone with the faults that some people think he has.If i had to choose between him & Carrick it would be him any time.

[Welsh Spur]

Defoe is worth more to us, financially and on the pitch, than Carrick.

This squad is starting to look very very dangerous, and no matter how much speculation there is....(carrick to united, defoe all summer, davenport to championship)...no one seems to be leaving. No one of note anyway.

Look out. That's all I can say. Spoke to a Liverpool supporting mate and he reckons we're in for a shock this season, we'll slip out of top 5. Needless to say, my response to this was a swift **** OFF!!!!

[Chinaman]

I also agree if we are to sell one, it's much better Carrick.
In fact I agree with England's No 1 not to play Carrick in the first 11.

[singapore spur]

i agree with some of the criticisms of defoe , but i think we should hang on to him for what i feel will be a make or break season for him.
for most of his career he has been seen as a class striker , but there has always been a feeling that he hasnt had the team around him to blossom in , i think notably that this was his (maybe big headed) feeling as well , but now this season he has no excuses .

if he doesnt take a leaf out of keanos book and appreciate he has never had it so good and knuckle down for the team , then it will be his own fault to be then considered dispensible .

with the englands striking positions up for grabs now as never before , his club team in europe with arguably one of the best young squads around , this a a massive season for him , and hopefully he has grown up a bit and realises it . im sure m.j will have put him straight as well .

[choda]

i agree with some of the criticisms of defoe , but I think we should hang on to him for what i feel will be a make or break season for him.
for most of his career he has been seen as a class striker , but there has always been a feeling that he hasnt had the team around him to blossom in , i think notably that this was his (maybe big headed) feeling as well , but now this season he has no excuses .

if he doesnt take a leaf out of keanos book and appreciate he has never had it so good and knuckle down for the team , then it will be his own fault to be then considered dispensible .

with the englands striking positions up for grabs now as never before , his club team in europe with arguably one of the best young squads around , this a a massive season for him , and hopefully he has grown up a bit and realises it . im sure m.j will have put him straight as well .


I think this is the most logical arguement I've heard which argues for Defoe.

I do also get the feeling he has a bit of an attitude problem, as on an odd occasion when he really had to prove a point suddenly he had some decent movement up front. However, the next game he'd back to his usual static rubbish.

Maybe, if he does work on his movement and his attitude he could totally turn himself around. If he stays I really hope he can... but I wouldn't bet on it.

Some of the other posts I think are missing the point I was making. I was not talking about form at all. If it was bad form I would not be worried. As Chinaman elequently pointed out all strikers go through bad patches. It comes with the position and the scrutiny.

I'm actually being critical of his game and ability. After all he's just whacked in three in two games and I am still unswerving in my opinions. That will only change if I see a big transformation when I see him play.

And Chinaman, I respect your opinion as you've obviously been a fan for donkeys years, but I can't for the life of me see how you think he is poacher.

When his eye is in he whacks them in from all angles (as I'd imagine he is doing right now in France). However, as he rises and as the team rises, other teams and coaches look for ways to stop us causing them problems. They look at Defoe and they just tell the defenders to 'stop him getting his shots away and you'll keep him very quiet'. I reckon that's what happened last year in the prem. Let's face it, if their doing that he's not great and getting in round the back/front of people in the box (poaching), or spinning away in behind the back four, and he isn't clever (one two's etc.) around the box either.

And the higher in levels you go the more this is true just by a big step in general defending quality. That's why he usually doesn't get a sniff in an England shirt.

Somebody also made a valid point that Fergie is willing to splash out 15 mil so he must have huge merit. Football is a game of opinions I suppose, but here's my take on this one: Obviously I've huge respect for Fergie, but what I respect about him is his abilities as a coach, tactition and motivator. He's amazing at these... but... over the years he hasn't have half cocked up some of his team selections (think Blanc and Silvestre {at centre back}) and he's also made some HUGE gaffs in the transfer market.

Benetiz is also rumoured to be interested, but apparently he won't pay more than 8 mil. I also think the same thing applies to him as to Fergie. Tremendous abilites, but I think like Fergie I'd question his prowess in the transfer market. He's didn't buy the players at Valencia and at Liverpool he's bought a lot of players and the only outfield purchase I can think of who's really impressed is Xabi Alonso.

Anyway, that's my pennies worth.

Choda

[choda]

I kind forgot Rafa been doing some great business lately though: Sissoko, Bellemy and possibly Gonzalez. But I still think he and Fergie are capable of some bad moves.

Personally I'd jump at offloading Defoe for 15 mil. Perhaps, I'm wrong... but I'd like to reiterate that I orginally came to this opinion a year and a half ago and have watched ever since to see if anything would change. It didn't, and if anything he got worse.

Choda

[Chinaman]

This may just be the season he'll get so much better when we have a proper team and some decent service to the front guys.

[Houdini logic]

you like long posts, eh Choda?

But some good points.

[spurs61]

I kind forgot Rafa been doing some great business lately though: Sissoko, Bellemy and possibly Gonzalez. But I still think he and Fergie are capable of some bad moves.

Personally I'd jump at offloading Defoe for 15 mil. Perhaps, I'm wrong... but I'd like to reiterate that I orginally came to this opinion a year and a half ago and have watched ever since to see if anything would change. It didn't, and if anything he got worse.

Choda

Nice points Choda.

I'm certainly not the Super Midget's biggest fan but I'm not sure I would "jump at offloading Defoe for 15 mil". The problem is that we would then have to replace him with a top quality signing to placate those fans who rate him so highly (the poor misguided fools!) and to ensure that we have the firepower to compete on 3-4 fronts. Therefore we would probably need to spend close to that if not more. That would be great if we could (for example) buy Torres for 20 mil, that would represent good business. Unfortunatley we would have to look at a "second class" striker in the Kuiyt category and I'm not sure that's a gamble worth taking, possibly in January if/when Defoe has proven our respective points. :p

Our other issue is the age of problem of "have cash, will get ripped off" :mad: , some of the prices quoted are going back to the bad days of the late-90's, £10 mil for a Championship defender or £6 mil for a very average non-French international?! :rolleyes:

[neilmcnab]

its all good saying to sell this player and buy this player, but we have to consider does the player want to come to spurs. and when its a good player he is normally well sorted after...we were fortuate to have no real competition for zakora... but now with the window nearing who wants to lose out... on the subject of defoe.. he is a fantastic forward to replace your talking £20million...and there is still a bedding in period... i dont beleive berbatov is gona be an instant hit... nor kujt if we went for him ,theyll take time to accustom to prem football..we need to look at what we got.. which is a great set of players and get behind them with some great support..sell no 1. maybe murphy in jan if he aint up to it... but even murphy i think will look a different player with a good pre season under his belt. coys!!!

[Spur]

To be honest I think we will only be seeing Murphy in pre-season, because when the season starts we have many ahead of him.

[choda]

you like long posts, eh Choda?

But some good points.

Yup, I just write what I want to say.

Neil McNab:
I disagree that it would be a bad time to sell Defoe. This isn't January... you have a great chance to get quality players at this time of year. It's just up in the air at the moment because everybody's waiting on the Italian clubs world cup players to get off the beach and decide what they're doing.

MJ's also looking at new systems and if he signs Duff/other attacking mid he would see 4321/3421 as options.

Why sell Murphy? He's good back-up and you'll only get peanuts for him.

And I'm really positive about this season. However, I think our success this season will hinge a lot on whether we get it right in the transfer market. We need a couple of big time players in at full back and left wing and if he fancies three at the back we need a quality CB. Defoe situation I see as described above.

That's how I see it. If it all goes right I think we could even put up some sort of title challenge! Berbs got 31 in 49 for Bulgaria, he's quality.

Choda

[Hayes Massive]

You Think Berby is quaulity,but he has to prove in the prem a hard place for forwards to shine.Defoe has already proved himself & it would be sheer madness to let him go.

[Gregzy]

Our other issue is the age of problem of "have cash, will get ripped off" :mad: , some of the prices quoted are going back to the bad days of the late-90's, £10 mil for a Championship defender or £6 mil for a very average non-French international?! :rolleyes:

Couldn't agree more with you on that point. It had looked as though transfer fees had reached a certain equlibrium again, but thanks to Chelsea, Newcastle and the World Cup, the UK transfer market looks set once again to be a place were fools and money become very easily parted.

I think selling Defoe would be a pretty foolish move right now - he will want to suceed this year and we might as well give him the chance to do that in our colours. Bear in mind these facts before we go screaming for his departure...

Not only do we have an extra front to fight on next season, most of our best players can expect to be playing some part in Euro Qualification. We can't have enough quality players.

Defoe may have looked poor last season, but we all know that when he is on form he is deadly. I'd agree that he isn't quite as good as some would think, but we know he CAN score goals and put the fear into defenders.

Kanoute ended up leaving quite the gap eventually - do we want to see MJ desperatley trawling the Championship for a non-cup-tied striker in January again?

[Welsh Spur]

You Think Berby is quaulity,but he has to prove in the prem a hard place for forwards to shine.Defoe has already proved himself & it would be sheer madness to let him go.
Madness, indeed.

[djsills]

shouldnt sell Defoe you can't go into a new premiership season with only one proved striker in premiership , even if you have a player such as Berbatov alongside proved elsewhere. Would be equivalent of what Sven did taking only one fit proven (if you can call Crouch that) striker to WC.
However, one thing i would really like to see is Barnard given more chances in the 1st team. He's had two terrific seasons in reserves, maybe if Defoe goes he'll get more chances.

I reckon save Defoe at least until January and see how he's done. If last game is anything to go by he'll do well

[Welsh Spur]

I have a feeling this Spurs side is one that will be kept intact, rather than picked apart by the so-called 'big four'.

[Chinaman]

And we'd add the odd pieces to complete it.

[Welsh Spur]

Yes, as with Berbatov, Zokora.......

[Chinaman]

I mean another couple of pieces like RB and LW.

[choda]

You Think Berby is quaulity,but he has to prove in the prem a hard place for forwards to shine.Defoe has already proved himself & it would be sheer madness to let him go.

Yea, there's always a chance he could fail. Same thing applies to Shev aswell. Prem is a unique league: It is faster, less technical and more about how you can cope pace, stamina and strength wise. Some people do flop, but Berb and Shev are real class (Shev is definitely world class and Berb is at least top class), we have to assume they will perform as expected. Both have great records in top leagues, in CL and Internationally.

As for selling Defoe, I'm not saying I'd prefer starting the season with 15 mil in the coffers instead of the little guy as back up. That would not be ideal at all. I'm just saying I think it would be ideal if we could get the cash and spend it. None of us knows the state of the market, really, only MJ knows that. But also have to consider that at some point if Defoe continues on the bench his value is going to plummet (in my view his marketable value has already dropped 5 mil from last summer) and he'll probably want out in Jan. Then we will be up the shitter, as it is really hard to buy good players in January. In my view, whatever you do is a risk, it's about weighing it up and doing what you think will reap the most reward at the end of the season.

Choda

[Welsh Spur]

Don't agree with your statement about Defoe being back-up this season. He definately should not be looked on as 'back-up' and definately should be being considered along with Berbatov and Keane for a starting place. If all three are firing on all cylinders this season then they should all be playing, otherwise MJ will give one of them no choice but to leave, and in this case it probably will be Defoe. Hopefully MJ can man-manage his forwards to maximum effect. Then everyone's happy.

[choda]

Don't agree with your statement about Defoe being back-up this season. He definately should not be looked on as 'back-up' and definately should be being considered along with Berbatov and Keane for a starting place. If all three are firing on all cylinders this season then they should all be playing, otherwise MJ will give one of them no choice but to leave, and in this case it probably will be Defoe. Hopefully MJ can man-manage his forwards to maximum effect. Then everyone's happy.

You're forgetting one thing: Jol doesn't rotate the strikers. He proved that last year first with Keane and then with Defoe. If fit and available he always has a first choice in his mind.

[Welsh Spur]

Well then in that case, with the 4 competitions that we're in next season, IMO the squad will not be used correctly. I don't think it will be effective to expect Berbatov and Keane, if fit and on form all season, to play every game in all 4 compos. Success in Modern-Day football is becoming more and more dependent on a depth of quality in a team's squad. And that is something we now have, in most if not quite all areas.

[choda]

Well then in that case, with the 4 competitions that we're in next season, IMO the squad will not be used correctly. I don't think it will be effective to expect Berbatov and Keane, if fit and on form all season, to play every game in all 4 compos. Success in Modern-Day football is becoming more and more dependent on a depth of quality in a team's squad. And that is something we now have, in most if not quite all areas.

Yea, this season in fairness will be different. I kinda forgot that. We had zero cup runs basically last year. Maybe he'll keep them all happy. If he knows he can replace him though I think he should... and maybe even buy one more. Tristan might be a good fourth striker to buy.

[Welsh Spur]

But I don't think there's anyone better at what Defoe does than Defoe. Tristan could be worth a punt, yeah, I'm eager to find out how Barnard is going to take to the Premiership this season because it's almost certain he will be used. Then we'll have two big men, and two little men. Although Barnard is more of a target man than Berbatov, from what I've seen of the two. I'll admit I don't know much of Berbatov, only what I've found on youtube, and in the Champions League.

For anyone who's interested, there's a vid on there which is a compilation of all his goal for Bayer last season. Awesome.

[spurs61]

You're forgetting one thing: Jol doesn't rotate the strikers. He proved that last year first with Keane and then with Defoe. If fit and available he always has a first choice in his mind.

Quite, I don't understand this fixation with rotating strikers. If you have a good partnership (Keane & Mido last season) what is the point of breaking it up in order to accomodate another striker? The same can be said of a defensive pairing, both pairings require an almost telepathic understanding between the individuals. When Man U were at the peak of heir powers did they rotate Andy cole and Dwight Yorke to placate Solskjaer? No they didn't, Ferguson and his staff recognised that they had a formidable striking force on their hands and thus played them together at very opportunity. Clearly we do not have any evidence at the moment that either Keane or Defoe have a natural understanding with Barbie, however Keane is the obvious choice as he not only scores goals but creates a huge amount for the side and his strike partner in particular. Keane is a true talisman who inspires his fellow players and the crowd a la Rooney and therefore MUST start when fit and available.

[Welsh Spur]

I think we could discuss this all day. But if Defoe carries his pre-season form into the league, how can you drop him?

[spurs61]

Simple, how do you leave Keane out given his audacious performances in the last half of the season. For me he was the best player in the country for that period. If a Brazilian had scored his goal against Blackburn (to trot out the much used phrase) the whole of football would have been talking about it for weeks and months, as it was it barely got a mention on MOTD. I don't disagree that Defoe is on fire at the moment but I truly believe he is the quintessential "rabbit killer", absolutley deadly against the lesser sides but fairly annonymous when it really counts. Of course I would love to be proved wrong.

[choda]

Just looked at it there. Ya, he's coming with quite a rep. Voller also said he's disappointed to have lost a world class player. I know its only clips, but he looks veery like Nisterooy. Seems to find space in the box... super touch and great finisher. Looks like a maestro with the pens too. Him and Keano will be grappling over who's takes them.

Seriously got to get back to work here.

[choda]

Quite, I don't understand this fixation with rotating strikers. If you have a good partnership (Keane & Mido last season) what is the point of breaking it up in order to accomodate another striker? The same can be said of a defensive pairing, both pairings require an almost telepathic understanding between the individuals. When Man U were at the peak of heir powers did they rotate Andy cole and Dwight Yorke to placate Solskjaer? No they didn't, Ferguson and his staff recognised that they had a formidable striking force on their hands and thus played them together at very opportunity. Clearly we do not have any evidence at the moment that either Keane or Defoe have a natural understanding with Barbie, however Keane is the obvious choice as he not only scores goals but creates a huge amount for the side and his strike partner in particular. Keane is a true talisman who inspires his fellow players and the crowd a la Rooney and therefore MUST start when fit and available.

I totally agree with you. But I think what Welshspur was saying is that Yorke and Cole didn't play ever single game in four competitions. They didn't play League Cup, and would have been rested for a lot of domestic games. Which didn't totally freeze out Sheri and Solskoar during the treble. That's all I was agreeing with in relation to his response.

But I agree it is about developing a partnership. I also agree that Keano was sensational last season and can't be relegated to understudy of a player he is clearly better than. I never liked seeing him warming the bench.

He's also the record scorer for Ireland at the age of 25. He's class, and HE'S only getting better.

[spurs61]

I thought this was work?

My German friend tell me to think more along the lines of MVB in comparison to Barbie, that's quite some claim! I'd settle for an RVN mark 2 though.

[spurs61]

I totally agree with you. But I think what Welshspur was saying is that Yorke and Cole didn't play ever single game in four competitions. They didn't play League Cup, and would have been rested for a lot of domestic games. Which didn't totally freeze out Sheri and Solskoar during the treble. That's all I was agreeing with.

But I agree it is about developing a partnership. I also agree that Keano was sensational last season and can't be relegated to understudy of a player he is clearly better than. I never liked seeing him warming the bench.

He's also the record scorer for Ireland at the age of 25. He's class, and HE'S only getting better.


Right, from now on I'm not posting after you as there is just no point, we seem to agree on most things. ;)

[sundancer]

Well guys this post has got us all talking which is a good thing, we may not all agree but that is the great thing about being a supporter we all care. Still think Defoe is a great player though, we just have to play to his strenghs.

[choda]

True, true.

Curious to know how we can play more to Defoe's strengths though?

[Spur]

Give him the ball and tell him to regain his old attitude - be a ****ing selfish git. Before Sven told him to be more of a team player he was a selfish one, it was this selfishness that led to him scoring some truly wonderful goals.

[Chinaman]

Goal scorers have to be selfish as otherwise they tend to pass more than shoot.

[mjbmedia]

and get him up to superspeed and train him to go thru on lehman every time hard.

[Chinaman]

All German goalies are thugs. I don't want Defoe's teeth knocked out.

[choda]

Give him the ball and tell him to regain his old attitude - be a ****ing selfish git. Before Sven told him to be more of a team player he was a selfish one, it was this selfishness that led to him scoring some truly wonderful goals.

Well... in my opinion what is going on here is this: Defoe obviously is trying to improve his overall game, and rightly so, he needs to. He obviously is being told this by Jol aswell, as the changes have to be worked on daily.

Now, he has improved slightly at playing in a partnership... but his form has gone bad. That happens to all strikers sometimes. I think you are looking at his bad form and assuming that it is to do with the changes. I don't think this is true at all, I think it is down to bad form, defenders wising up to his limitations (stopping him getting his shots away keeps him very quiet), and the fact that he at least of yet has not addressed those limitations and added very important other elements to his 'selfish' game (like learning to poach).

We had problems as a team scoring goals in the recent past (season before last) because of Defoe being a world of his own. The only goals we were scoring really were great individual efforts, because every time the ball went up to Defoe he was head down and charging at goal. Worked sometimes, but made us one dimensional with no good link play, and the team behind had trouble getting up the pitch into a attacking positions. Overall, it was something which would have kept us in mid table... as it did the season before last.

Ya, all great goalscorers are a bit selfish. I think when Keano has the goal within his sights he's very selfish... and that's not a bad thing. All the goalscorers are like that. But 'selfish' here with Defoe, in my view, is just a word. He's not lost any selfishness when he's bearing down on goal which is the instinct that you don't want to take away. And if he did fluff a few chances because of unselfish bad moves he'd quickly stop doing it.

Personally, I think any other talk of needing to be more selfish is just cobblers. Everything else comes down to form and ability.

[choda]

Right, from now on I'm not posting after you as there is just no point, we seem to agree on most things. ;)

Cool.

If we agree on this then we might well have been separated at birth: Maradona is the greatest footballer of all time... nobody else even comes close.

Oh god, I hope I haven't started a huge debate. Nobody else comment on this post except spur61. Stop it... no... get away... step away from the keyboard... I know your itching to comment... take a few deep breaths and **** off.

****ing Pele lovers. He scored all his goals in Brazil, where Romario scored 74 in one season at the age of 38. Pele's second best, followed by Best. :D

[sundancer]

Greaves, Allen, Lineker I saw them all play at the lane and the one thing they had in common, apart from being great scorers was that they were all selfish players, now I do not think Defoe is in there class but he needs to remember what he is good at and forget about being a complete all round player.

[Danishspurs]

Totally agree with Choda... Every good striker acts on instinct and when they get close to the goal they tend to go on themselves, but when they're not close to the goal they need to link up with the rest of the team.. And Defoe has lacked that in the past, but has improved a lot on that and that have made him an better overall player...

[choda]

Greaves, Allen, Lineker I saw them all play at the lane and the one thing they had in common, apart from being great scorers was that they were all selfish players, now I do not think Defoe is in there class but he needs to remember what he is good at and forget about being a complete all round player.

You're not getting what I'm saying. I'd be content if he was like Lineker (I'm only really familiar with Lineker) or Michael Owen, because Owen makes up for his lack of an all round game with his ability to get on the end of things and poach in the box. Something Defoe has never done. Totally different player, much less of a player, much more limited.

And having said that I think Owen should improve his link play somewhat. And here's my point: Because it does not have to take one auota away from the rest of what he is already doing well. Here's an example: who would you rather have, the pre-horrendous injuries Ronaldo or Owen. Basically exactly the same template of player except that Ronaldo was brillant all round aswell and it didn't take anything away from his goalscoring. He was also quicker, stronger, better football brain and a better finisher but that is not the point I'm making. I was just seeking an example of an total poacher who was also fantastic all round. It just so happens that I picked probably the best striker ever, which in my view young Ronaldo was.

My point with Defoe is he's improved his link play a little bit and he's a better player in a partnership, but that has not taken anything away from his ability to score goals. His slight drop in goal rate, in my view, is down to other reasons as I stated in an earlier post. He needs to keep learning the link play and also if he can how to get on the end of things and make good intelligent runs. But as I've stated already though I'm not sure you can learn poaching and good movement. Some players are gifted with a football brain, like Robbie.

I hope he does become a proper player... because I don't think he is one right now. His goals, in the main, came from good shooting ability. Something I believe other teams are wising up to.

[Aussiespur]

Well then in that case, with the 4 competitions that we're in next season, IMO the squad will not be used correctly. I don't think it will be effective to expect Berbatov and Keane, if fit and on form all season, to play every game in all 4 compos. Success in Modern-Day football is becoming more and more dependent on a depth of quality in a team's squad. And that is something we now have, in most if not quite all areas.


Agree Welsh Spur. Would like a couple of speedy left sided players who can cross a ball to complete the depth but I for one am very happy with the "Spurs Revolution" to this point. All in all it bodes for a very exciting future at N17.

[mjbmedia]

back to Defoes link up pay, the other players have to be good enough to link up with Defoe, Kanoute and Defoe had a telepathic understanding so when they played defoe worked cos Kanoute understood everything defoe would do , Mido never did , Keane struggles to tho it is gelling better now.
Defoe tries and expects link ups that others wouldnt even consider , ditto to Henry, thats why Henry is always better with Arsenal whose players understand him ,than for France whose players dont , so until our players learn how to link up with Defoe hes either gonna have to go it alone or be frustrated a lot of the time which you could see happening last season when mido and others didnt read or understand him.
i think he'll be playing one twos with Berby all season for fun

[choda]

back to Defoes link up pay, the other players have to be good enough to link up with Defoe, Kanoute and Defoe had a telepathic understanding so when they played defoe worked cos Kanoute understood everything defoe would do , Mido never did , Keane struggles to tho it is gelling better now.
Defoe tries and expects link ups that others wouldnt even consider , ditto to Henry, thats why Henry is always better with Arsenal whose players understand him ,than for France whose players dont , so until our players learn how to link up with Defoe hes either gonna have to go it alone or be frustrated a lot of the time which you could see happening last season when mido and others didnt read or understand him.
i think he'll be playing one twos with Berby all season for fun

Let me get this straight, you're saying that they don't understand what Defoe does... what are the rest of them playing rugby or something, or is Defoe just too good a player for Davids, Carrick, Keano, and Lennon (not that that makes any sense anyway)? Cummon... that's just crazy talk.

For me, you're seeing some things happening and coming to outlandish conclusions.

Kanoute was better at linking up with anybody... because he's much better than Mido at doing that. He linked up better with Keano too.

I personally think Kanoute was a better player than Mido until he fell out with the club after the african nations. But there wouldn't be much in it. Mido was more of a battering ram, a havoc causer, and he creates space for other players doing that.

But we are talking about Defoe here. He and Mido were horrible together as a partnership, he and Kanoute were better, Mido and Keane had a good relationship, and Keane and Kanoute I think had a very good understanding before the African Nations (when he was dropped and Defoe started playing with Keane).

Defoe still had the same faults playing with Kanoute as he did with Mido. It's just that other teams have wised up to him now, which is why his goal rate has dropped, and unless he improves his movement he'll struggle to get goals.

Don't forget this doesn't just happen at spurs, he's worse for England, because that's a further step up, if you're limited it will expose you.

As for Keane and Defoe together, there is only one reason why they sometimes struggle playing together: They both like to operate in the left channel.

To make it work Keane has to alter his normal game. And also the team has to alter the style of play and play everything out from the back and into feet, because they're both midgets. That takes time on the training ground for it to work. That's why it did start to work in some games... not because Keano suddenly started to understand Defoe's 'god like manoevre's'. If anybody does god like manoevre's it's Keano.

I'm not sure they can play together every week in the prem anyway. I think in such a physical fast paced league it's better overall for the team to have a target to play the bal into aswell (note I mean play it into and not aimless Bolton punts or England playing it to Crouch).

And by the way Henry is a different arguement. But again I think you're seeing some things and coming to some off base conclusions.

In short Henry is overated. The way Arsenal play in the prem (a unique league) is totally made for him.

I remember counting 16 big games in a row (a year or two ago against top opposition, usually in the CL or Internationally), where he was really poor. And this was at a time when a lot of people were saying he was the best player in the world. I thought it was a quite an incredible statement to make.

Arsenal basically are successful in the prem because they mastered the 200 miles per hour prem games. There is lots of breaking ball and the ball is given away in the middle quite a bit too, especially by poor teams. They win the ball and go bang, bang, bang and somebody with pace is away, usually Henry.

They're usually rubbish in Europe because it is a possesion game and Arsenal essentially play brainless ice hockey football. You can't just play break away football at the higher levels/in slower paced leagues. They were totally blessed last year to get to CL final, they played rubbish teams or teams in utter disarray (Juve were horrible) and then Villareal deserved to beat them.

I think Henry's top class, don't get me wrong, but in my view he's not a genuine centre forward at the higher levels. He's more of a left inside forward. He's only a centre forward if you're playing on the break, and you can't do that all the time unless there are special circumstances (like the prem).

During the world cup he only got any real joy when he came deep, and then they had absolutely no centre forward. Had they played Henry on the left and King Louis up front, I reckon they've scored the goal against Italy.

A good number of times France put great crosses in and Henry was standing outside the box. Don't try to blame that on anyone but Henry. His job is to be in there when he's supposed to be.

[spurs61]

I agree with the novel writer! I'm not sure Henry is "overrated" per sey, it's more to do with the fact that he is paid far too much respect (and money!) in the Premiership and has a team built entirely around him. I'm not sure we would see the same results if we built the team around Defoe though!

[suBerb]

a very good post, Choda, enjoying reading it

[choda]

I agree with the novel writer! I'm not sure Henry is "overrated" per sey, it's more to do with the fact that he is paid far too much respect (and money!) in the Premiership and has a team built entirely around him. I'm not sure we would see the same results if we built the team around Defoe though!

Yea, sorry if they are long to read, but I have an ability to write very quickly, so I can rattle off an in depth explanation of my point of view. Sometimes I think it's better to explain yourself or the other person might think you're saying something different. In the pub you don't have to do that because you're chatting back and forth.

[spurs61]

Couldn't agree more mate, I like a nice in depth explaination and an insight into your way of thinking, it's what mature debates are all about.


.....I said MATURE DEBATES before anyone decides to make a comment!!

[choda]

I agree with the novel writer! I'm not sure Henry is "overrated" per sey, it's more to do with the fact that he is paid far too much respect (and money!) in the Premiership and has a team built entirely around him. I'm not sure we would see the same results if we built the team around Defoe though!

Yea, I hear ya, but I just mean slightly overated. He's still in the top five players in the world without question. Just the best player, no. In my view he's not a great player, but he is truly world class. And I still maintain he is not a geniune centre forward unless playing on the break.

And I would agree, he is certainly a player worthy of building a team around.

I just don't think he deserves to be put in the same esteem as Maradona, Pele, Best, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Cruyff, Pre-Horrendous Injuries Ronaldo, Rooney (who I think will be among these players... and that's an Irishman saying that) etc. I think you could even put Roy Keane up there, he was almost as influential as Zidane when they were both at there prime, he was a colossus at every level.

All those afformentioned players had a special quality to do it at every level and they were also all big games players. That's greatness for me... the bigger the occasion the better they play.

[suBerb]

I just don't think he deserves to be put in the same esteem as Maradona, Pele, Best, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Cruyff, Pre-Horrendous Injuries Ronaldo, Rooney (who I think will be among these players... and that's an Irishman saying that) etc. I think you could even put Roy Keane up there, he was almost as influential as Zidane when they were both at there prime, he was a colossus at every level.
.


van Basten?

[choda]

Probably ya, I just don't know a lot about him. When I was starting to watch football he was always injured and then retired.

[suBerb]

Probably ya, I just don't know a lot about him. When I was starting to watch football he was always injured and then retired.

many consider him to be the best center-forward in the history of the game...

watched him many times for Holland and Milan - just fantastic

think also that Michel Platini is a greater player than Zidane. Only one fact - Platini was the goalscorer of the Euro 1984, scoring 9 in 5 games, without being a striker.

[choda]

many consider him to be the best center-forward in the history of the game...

watched him many times for Holland and Milan - just fantastic

Yea, I'd believe that. Was he even better than pre-injuries Ronaldo? From clips I've seen his touch and technique looked sensational.

[choda]

Again I'm not really qualified to comment on that. In 1984 I all my efforts were in learning to walk and talk.

[spurs61]

MNB = Greatest all round striker ever.

The fact that his carrer was curtailed by injury does not overshadow what he acheived in his short career. Ronaldo is a one trick pony in comparison with the great Marco. Put very simply, there was nothing he couldn't do on a football pitch.

Having said all of this about him, I have always wondered if he would have been the same player without the equally brilliant Ruud Gullit (whisper it quitely, Ruud might just hear us and start licking himself).

[suBerb]

Yea, I'd believe that. Was he even better than pre-injuries Ronaldo? From clips I've seen his touch and technique looked sensational.


watched many games of pre-ijuries Ronaldo when he played for Barca. He was only 20-21 but looked the most talented player in the history. This season - 1996-1997 - he scored nearly 50 goals for Barca. Unbelievable. I thought that he wiil become even greater than Pele and Maradona. But his injuries...His biggest mistake was that he moved to Inter.

[spurs61]

His biggest mistake was that he moved to Inter.

His biggest mistake was developing a fondness for cake.

[mjbmedia]

Probably ya, I just don't know a lot about him. When I was starting to watch football he was always injured and then retired.
ahh right, ok well come back to us in ten years then when youve got a bit of history and knowledge to fall back on, until then you can keep the junior spurs members entertained:D

[choda]

mjbmedia,

Are you one of the golden oldies of this forum? Do yourself, sundancer and chinaman share a computer in the tottenham retirement home? :D

I suppose you'd like to add some Uruguan 1930 world cup winner to the list... or how about a Preston North End invincible? Sir Stanley Matthews?

I'm well up on my history mate, but I can't really write too much about Platini or Van Basten because I've only seen clips of them. I've seen full matches of all the other greats I didn't see in my lifetime, they show them every summer.

My football memory of watching live starts from 1989 or so.

Superb's comment on Platini being better than Zidane: Sure that was an amazing tournament he must have had, but goals aren't everything. In France they regard Zizou as their best ever player.

Don't forget Zidane won everything in the game. In his prime he was a truly breathtaking footballer, and he inspired France to win the world cup and the euros. And remember that goal in the cl final? He nearly even inspired them to win this world cup, despite being a total crock. The way he dug performances out from somewhere shows the man's greatness. Could Platini have done that? I doubt he was that good, but I could be wrong.

MVB must have been some striker if he was better than young Ronaldo. Some people have short memories, I agree with Superb that he was a phenomenon. I don't know if it is even possible to be a better striker than he was in the 1998 world cup and at Barca. The injuries have made him half the player he was... and I agree that shortly after his move to Madrid he discovered cake.
He then told Lardel and then word filtered through to Andy Reid. They both developed quite a taste for it, and... well, the rest is history.

Word has it Andy Reid has had to get the doorways in his house widened.

[mjbmedia]

mate i like your cheek, its similar to mine ,we're gonna get on just fine as long as you remember im right ;-)

ps dont you remember the white horse at wembley in 1923 ???? he had a great left peg

[choda]

Talking of great players... I know I said I didn't want to start this debate... but for me, even on that list nobody can touch Maradona. He was the most sensational genius that's ever graced the game.

What he could do on a pitch, I think, is just unmatched. He was both a genius and a extremely special character. Sir Bobby Robson said something like this about him, 'He could do anything with a football, and he also inspired his teamates and bullied his oppenents. He had as much talent and genius as anybody ever and he also had extraordinary leadership qualities. Just an amazing player.'

Personally, I don't think the likes of him will exist again for a very long time.

Two win not one but two seria A titles with Napoli is extraordinary. They did nothing before that or since. And given the recent scandal of the big clubs it makes all the more extraordinary. Napoli had an average to eustace team apart from him.

He also basically won the world cup on his own in '86. That side was okay, but with him it was a excellent side.

Maradona sends chills down my spine... what a player.

Speaking of Argentina, do you know what three signings I'd love to see come in this summer?

Sorin, Ayala, and Riquelme! It is possible. They'd be the new Ardiles and Villa. And we'd go to wing backs (Lennon and Sorin), how magic would that be?

That team would challenge for the title.

[Chinaman]

Greatest ever player is Pele. Maradona at most is 80% as good as him.

[suBerb]

didn't watch Pele, Maradona is by far the best player I've ever seen

To be sure, Pele's WC goals are not so brilliant.

[choda]

Greatest ever player is Pele. Maradona at most is 80% as good as him.

I don't know how you can say that.

This darn site gets so slow sometimes, I wanted to edit my post but couldn't for a while.

[Chinaman]

didn't watch Pele, Maradona is by far the best player I've ever seen

To be sure, Pele's WC goals are not so brilliant.

The best WC goal was the one Pele scored against Sweden in the 58 Final.

[choda]

Some people base Pele as the greatest on the fact that he scored more goals than anybody in history and did so as a midfielder. To be sure he was phenomenal, but you have to consider that he scored them in Brazil. Romario at the age of 38 scored 74 in one season. It's just crazy over there.

I think taking everything into account nobody comes near Maradona.

[choda]

The best WC goal was the one Pele scored against Sweden in the 58 Final.

Better than Maradona's in '86... you having a laugh mate?

[suBerb]

The best WC goal was the one Pele scored against Sweden in the 58 Final.

think that Maradona's second goal against England was better
Maradona scored also a brilliant goal against Belgium in the semi-final

[mjbmedia]

think that Maradona's second goal against England was better
Maradona scored also a brilliant goal against Belgium in the semi-final
so against two extremely poor defenses then, In peles times he'd have been hacked down before hed beaten the second guy but for some reason no one tried to foul the Argy drug baron in 86.

[suBerb]

so against two extremely poor defenses then, In peles times he'd have been hacked down before hed beaten the second guy but for some reason no one tried to foul the Argy drug baron in 86.

well, but Italian teams' defences in Seria A were pretty good and he scored against them too

[choda]

so against two extremely poor defenses then, In peles times he'd have been hacked down before hed beaten the second guy but for some reason no one tried to foul the Argy drug baron in 86.

That's total cock. This was the latter stages of a world cup. Scoring goals a goal like that in the last sixteen of the biggest tournament on earth against England (with the climate around that game) was extraordinary. To not give him credit for that goal is incredible. And Maradona along with Pele and Best was the most kicked player I've ever seen.

[choda]

What do you lot think about doing another Argentina coup for spurs? Getting those three would be magic wouldn't it?

[Chinaman]

You should have seen how the Bulgarians dealt with Pele in the 62 WC and of course the Portuguese did him in 66. Both times the injuries were so serious that he took eno further part in the campaign.

[Chinaman]

They were also very dirty in the Brazilian league. Recently I saw some old footages of Pele on Youtube and you could see what they did to try to stop him in Brazil. Much more blatant fouls then you see in Italy.

[choda]

You should have seen how the Bulgarians dealt with Pele in the 62 WC and of course the Portuguese did him in 66. Both times the injuries were so serious that he took eno further part in the campaign.

Ya, I'm sure it was bad. But remember they only brought in player protection in the nineties. Maradona could handle himself aswell, and so could Best.

[Chinaman]

Pele was also known to be able to look after hinself and had been sent off and suspended for retaliation.

[choda]

Pele was also known to be able to look after hinself and had been sent off and suspended for retaliation.

Was he, cool. He's gone slightly up then in my already very very high estimations. I like players that get angry. It fuels the genius.

[Chinaman]

In June 1972, Santos and Newcastle played a friendly in heavy rain in HongKong. Newcastle were pretty strong at that time. Pele got the ball just inside the Toon's side and kept the ball in the air with every part of his body you can think of for 14 times and wove his way into the box before smashing in the best goal that I have ever seen.

[mjbmedia]

That's total cock. This was the latter stages of a world cup. Scoring goals a goal like that in the last sixteen of the biggest tournament on earth against England (with the climate around that game) was extraordinary. To not give him credit for that goal is incredible. And Maradona along with Pele and Best was the most kicked player I've ever seen.
you watch next time they have it on Blue Peter and see nobody even tries to bring him down, they all feebly try to half heartedly tackle him .
Chinaman init great when we get the young upstarts on here dont know much what they is talking about god blimey guvnor .
Maradonna against a good defense would have been left in a heap near the halfway line , against the shite that was England and Belguim defense in 86 he walked it in

[Chinaman]

And looking at some of those old footage of Brazilian tackles, I think quite a few were intended to maim him.

[choda]

In June 1972, Santos and Newcastle played a friendly in heavy rain in HongKong. Newcastle were pretty strong at that time. Pele got the ball just inside the Toon's side and kept the ball in the air with every part of his body you can think of for 14 times and wove his way into the box before smashing in the best goal that I have ever seen.

That sounds like one amazing goal. But we'll have to agree to disagree on this because Maradona will always be the greatest to me.

[Chinaman]

Yes, we all have our heroes and idols and it's quite difficult for those who haven't seen Pele at his prime to appreciate what he was able to do. I had an old tape which had been lost of Pele doing all sorts of tricks with a bunch of rags, grape fruits and I don't remember what else. Playing keepy-up with a perfectly round ball these days is relatively easy compared with what Pele did with all those stuff.

[suBerb]

You should have seen how the Bulgarians dealt with Pele in the 62 WC and of course the Portuguese did him in 66. Both times the injuries were so serious that he took eno further part in the campaign.

Bulgaria played against Brasil in 1966

[Chinaman]

My mistake, but it was another Iron Curtain sid ethat did him in 62.

[choda]

you watch next time they have it on Blue Peter and see nobody even tries to bring him down, they all feebly try to half heartedly tackle him .
Chinaman init great when we get the young upstarts on here dont know much what they is talking about god blimey guvnor .
Maradonna against a good defense would have been left in a heap near the halfway line , against the shite that was England and Belguim defense in 86 he walked it in


Age doesn't always mean wisdom. You're the one who sounds like he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Oh ya, I've seen loads of goals like that against England in the eighties, Belgium and every other defense in world cup history. Players just beat six men and the goalkeeper and knock it in all the time.

[choda]

How about Sorin, Chimbonda, and another top striker? Sorin is then even cover for fourth striker (if we sold Defoe, which is a possibility), he's played up there for Argentina. It shows how good he is.

That would make us very strong indeed, maybe even title challengers.

[Welsh Spur]

Well rumours today suggest we're looking for around £10M and RVN from United, which is a little OTT. I'd say Ruud and £5M, then we'll see how much the scottish **** wants Carrick....

...would RVN want to come though? And do we need him? Personally I don't like him, but I can't question his ability.

[choda]

Well rumours today suggest we're looking for around £10M and RVN from United, which is a little OTT. I'd say Ruud and £5M, then we'll see how much the scottish **** wants Carrick....

...would RVN want to come though? And do we need him? Personally I don't like him, but I can't question his ability.

I agree with you mate. 10mil plus Ruud is pushing it. And I'd question him aswell. Two years ago I'd have jumped at getting him, but as Fergie's complained he's not been trying which is unacceptable. He still scoring goals but I think his lack of effort is hurting his teams. He used to be a superstar, fantastic at holding the ball up and working for the team as well as a lethal poacher. His attitude sends the wrong message to the other players.

I don't think he'd come anyway. His wages are miles too high for our wage structure, and if Berbie (who he is similar to) lives up to his rep he'd have serious competition. This all points to no deal, but you never know.

[choda]

Yes, we all have our heroes and idols and it's quite difficult for those who haven't seen Pele at his prime to appreciate what he was able to do. I had an old tape which had been lost of Pele doing all sorts of tricks with a bunch of rags, grape fruits and I don't remember what else. Playing keepy-up with a perfectly round ball these days is relatively easy compared with what Pele did with all those stuff.

Chinaman,

Last night I watched a programme with old footage where Maradona was lying on his back playing keepy uppy with a tennis ball... and then he had somebody throw him a golf ball... which he preceded to also juggle up in the air on his back.

I'd seen it before but forgot all about it. Not that the tricks matter so much, but it shows what he was capable of trick-wise aswell.

Do you think those guys had a good first touch?:)

[hastingsyid]

the best thing for jol to do and show his appreciation to all us yids is to punch the **** out of that whingeing wenger peado poof