Keane being a C***

[Rojoknapp]

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_4102822,00.html

What the **** has the berbatov saga got to do with Robbie ****ing Keane? I'm one of his biggest fans but why did he open his trap about this?

[TURKISH]

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_4102822,00.html

What the **** has the berbatov saga got to do with Robbie ****ing Keane? I'm one of his biggest fans but why did he open his trap about this?

Yep he doesn't even consider how us fans are feeling. I hope rafa plays him on the ****ing wings and i hope he flops!!!!!!!!!!

[berbzy 'G']

f*ck what Keane thinks, f*ck BerbaCu*t... We just need to concentrate on how our team is currently running right now and what is likely to happen for the future aswell as January...

[LifeTimeYido]

Bah - fcuk the pair of them, they aint Spurs players anymore.

[mjbmedia]

haha thats two ****s for Woody to break the legs of and become even more of a fans favourite than he is.

I havent even read what he said, i never did rate him that much.

[bocayid]

tbh I don't see what robbie keane has said that is wrong?....he wasn't slagging spurs off....just saying what we already knew.....aint got a problem with him at all......

[Shuggie13]

tbh I don't see what robbie keane has said that is wrong?....he wasn't slagging spurs off....just saying what we already knew.....aint got a problem with him at all......

That is exactly what I was thinking, it was a bored journalist looking to fill some space and Keane stating the bleeding obvious.

[Spur]

Didn't need to be said, and not going to win Mr Tottenham any Spurs fans.

[berbzy 'G']

Keane or Berbatov wouldnt dare celebrate if they score against a crowd of disturbed and upset Tottenham fans

[MarlowSpurs]

Keane or Berbatov wouldnt dare celebrate if they score against a crowd of disturbed and upset Tottenham fans

I would love them to try just to see what happens;)

[berbzy 'G']

I would love them to try just to see what happens;)

We have got quite a naughty load of Spurs fans aswell as noisy, So I should imagine Berbatov will get plenty of abuse, There will be mixed feelings when Keane walks onto the pitch in a Liverpool shirt, But that wont stop me from calling him a short arse Tw*t!!!! :cool:

[bocayid]

might be nice to remember the goals he banged in for us..and the good few years he was at the lane....

The are many players I would happily shout abuse at...and have..and many a ruck i would happily take part in...but slagging Keane off aint anywhere near the top of my list......

respect other opinions if they think he's a **** but I'd like to think the majority of Fans that go week in week out would appreciate the time he was at the lane.....

[jrio]

Berba will deserve lots of abuse. He refused to play. Keane doesn't. 19m for Keane was a great deal unless you'd bought a new shirt emblazoned with his name. Watching the Ireland game on 5 the same old failing of Keane, poor finishing, reared its head. A short pass, Keane on to it and past the keeper, with about 40% of the goal to shoot at he hits the post.

[Rojoknapp]

might be nice to remember the goals he banged in for us..and the good few years he was at the lane....

The are many players I would happily shout abuse at...and have..and many a ruck i would happily take part in...but slagging Keane off aint anywhere near the top of my list......

respect other opinions if they think he's a **** but I'd like to think the majority of Fans that go week in week out would appreciate the time he was at the lane.....

I absolutely agree, I'm still a keane fan when he's in a green shirt and loved him while he was at WHL. But now he's gone, why is he talking about what a great move Berbac*nt has made? He's just slapping us in the face saying - "I'm so glad berba managed to escape like me, now he can really fulfill his potential." He doesn't play for us, so he shouldn't talk about anything involving us.

[bocayid]

fair points but he didn't say that did he...he didnt say ''im glad he managed to escape like me'.....I would imagine he wasn't happy with the journo asking the question,obviously trying to stir things up a bit....

Keane stuck with us and got us out of many a hole at times....more than many of the players that have worn our shirt over the last few tears....

all he did was state the bleeding obvious....berba has gone to a club that will be in the mix when it comes to winning things,,,,he also said that we have brought in some quality....

anyways id rather focus now on us and where we are going now.....

[Shuggie13]

fair points but he didn't say that did he...he didnt say ''im glad he managed to escape like me'.....I would imagine he wasn't happy with the journo asking the question,obviously trying to stir things up a bit....

Keane stuck with us and got us out of many a hole at times....more than many of the players that have worn our shirt over the last few tears....

all he did was state the bleeding obvious....berba has gone to a club that will be in the mix when it comes to winning things,,,,he also said that we have brought in some quality....

anyways id rather focus now on us and where we are going now.....

Intentional spelling mistake?

Giving Keane abuse when he comes to The Lane would lower our fans to the level of the Pikeys. We are better than that and the man deserves a good reception for the years he put in.

[bocayid]

typo...but quite apt i spose.....lol

[Shuggie13]

typo...but quite apt i spose.....lol

Indeed. I thought, never has a typo been more appropriate to summing up supporting Spurs. :)

[Rojoknapp]

Intentional spelling mistake?

Giving Keane abuse when he comes to The Lane would lower our fans to the level of the Pikeys. We are better than that and the man deserves a good reception for the years he put in.

yeah i'm definitely not going to give him abuse or jeer at him, but I definitely am not going to cheer when his name is called or he touches the ball - I have no intention of making him feel good about leaving. I saw a good idea on another forum that said when his name is read out, or he touches the ball, just be silent. If we could get the whole place silent it would be pretty effective. Not abusing him, but letting hin know we're not happy.

[Shuggie13]

No difference really, silence is still making a protest.

[choda]

Berba will deserve lots of abuse. He refused to play. Keane doesn't. 19m for Keane was a great deal unless you'd bought a new shirt emblazoned with his name. Watching the Ireland game on 5 the same old failing of Keane, poor finishing, reared its head. A short pass, Keane on to it and past the keeper, with about 40% of the goal to shoot at he hits the post.

Oh yea, can't finish his dinner, that's how you score 34 goals in 82 internationals as a second striker. :rolleyes:

[choda]

yeah i'm definitely not going to give him abuse or jeer at him, but I definitely am not going to cheer when his name is called or he touches the ball - I have no intention of making him feel good about leaving. I saw a good idea on another forum that said when his name is read out, or he touches the ball, just be silent. If we could get the whole place silent it would be pretty effective. Not abusing him, but letting hin know we're not happy.

That's fair enough, but to be honest **** it, it was a good deal for a 28 year old and a good move for him because we are not there yet and it could be another few years. I don't think we should be complaining. We can replace him, it is not easy but we can in time and Berba**** too. I'm hoping Pav is one replacement already done and the much maligned Bent still hasn't had a real chance here.

[inthewoods]

The best way is to neither cheer him or boo him. Hes not our problem any more. He's just another liverpool scumbag now. I wouldnt give him the attention he most certainly does not deserve.

[jrio]

Oh yea, can't finish his dinner, that's how you score 34 goals in 82 internationals as a second striker. :rolleyes:

He's Ireland's main striker, not second striker, and has been for a while. If you're disputing his finishing for that chance was anything but lamentable, a chance Defoe would have rattled in with his eyes shut, then you're even further up Keane's arse than before he left. :o

[berbzy 'G']

He's Ireland's main striker, not second striker, and has been for a while. If you're disputing his finishing for that chance was anything but lamentable, a chance Defoe would have rattled in with his eyes shut, then you're even further up Keane's arse than before he left. :o

choda is not the only one who has been up Keanes arse, All Tottenham fans used to worship Keane... Now I personnley dislike him

[jrio]

That's fair enough, but to be honest **** it, it was a good deal for a 28 year old and a good move for him because we are not there yet and it could be another few years. I don't think we should be complaining. We can replace him, it is not easy but we can in time and Berba**** too. I'm hoping Pav is one replacement already done and the much maligned Bent still hasn't had a real chance here.

It was an excellent price for Keane, never mind how old! I'd have taken 15m.

[choda]

He's Ireland's main striker, not second striker, and has been for a while. If you're disputing his finishing for that chance was anything but lamentable, a chance Defoe would have rattled in with his eyes shut, then you're even further up Keane's arse than before he left. :o

Second striker means playing in behind an out and out forward, which is where most of Keane's career has been played.

[choda]

choda is not the only one who has been up Keanes arse, All Tottenham fans used to worship Keane... Now I personnley dislike him

I'm not up his arse berps it's my objective opinion on the matter. He is a fine player as his record proves and that's only half of what he does because he has an excellent football brain too.

[berbzy 'G']

I'm not up his arse berps it's my objective opinion on the matter. He is a fine player as his record proves and that's only half of what he does because he has an excellent football brain too.

What do you think about the partnership between Keane and Torres?

[choda]

What do you think about the partnership between Keane and Torres?

I don't think anything about it, it's far too early to tell. End of the year will probably see it come on strong as liverpool generally do. Liverpool still lack quality wide men as far as I see and will probably struggle to be good enough.

Liverpool appear to be having the same old problems of getting good service to the front men at the start of the year and they also do too much rotation for my liking.

[berbzy 'G']

I don't think anything about it, it's far too early to tell. End of the year will probably see it come on strong as liverpool generally do. Liverpool still lack quality wide men as far as I see and will probably struggle to be good enough.

Liverpool appear to be having the same old problems of getting good service to the front men at the start of the year and they also do too much rotation for my liking.

Riera should be able to support that wide postion, I think Lucas should be adapted to fit into a wingers position, he has crossing quality aswell as superb passing accuaracy

[Rojoknapp]

He's Ireland's main striker, not second striker, and has been for a while. If you're disputing his finishing for that chance was anything but lamentable, a chance Defoe would have rattled in with his eyes shut, then you're even further up Keane's arse than before he left. :o

remind me of defoe's international goalscoring record again?

[jrio]

remind me of defoe's international goalscoring record again?

I wouldn't need to if he was Irish, because he would have played every game and have smacked in a lot more than Keane. You might think to yourself: "How many goals has Rooney, a striker that cost nearly 3 times more than Defoe, and is a first choice when fit, scored?".

[choda]

I wouldn't need to if he was Irish, because he would have played every game and have smacked in a lot more than Keane. You might think to yourself: "How many goals has Rooney, a striker that cost nearly 3 times more than Defoe, and is a first choice when fit, scored?".

God, it's almost like you are trying to start an arguement Jrio. LOL.

[Spur]

remind me of defoe's international goalscoring record again?

There are so many different points to make to put that one down.

Put it this way, international stats etc are always null and void from whatever way you look at it.

[Rojoknapp]

I wouldn't need to if he was Irish, because he would have played every game and have smacked in a lot more than Keane. You might think to yourself: "How many goals has Rooney, a striker that cost nearly 3 times more than Defoe, and is a first choice when fit, scored?".

But how many has defoe scored in the games he HAS played?? Undeniably he has scored 4 against Andorra and Trinidad and Tobago, so clearly he must be quality. Keane obviously can't match up with goals vs Germany, Czech Republic, Holland, Croatia, Spain and others can he? Why won't you admit that Keane is better when he has a better Spurs record and international record than defoe, even though Keane plays in an ireland team clearly not as good as England? You would think it would be easy for defoe in that sort of team, but apparently not....

[choda]

There are so many different points to make to put that one down.

Put it this way, international stats etc are always null and void from whatever way you look at it.

That's nonsense mate, unless the teams you play are useless like it is with Australia and Jamaica. It's the biggest judge of a players standard, just like champions league. Not least because it is where the pressure is and that will push on weaknesses you have.

Defoe's not as good as Keane, simple as that, it was proven at spurs. He doesn't even score more than him as the stats for the same team prove (a direct comparison) and that is only half the story anyway because Keane has a brilliant football brain, Defoe doesn't.

That's why one is at Liverpool and one is at Portsmouth. That's why one consistently disappoints when he starts for England and the other has the same international record as Michael Owen as well as being in a different league to both of them as a creator.

When Defoe starts he is often substituted at half time, last time out for Heskey!

If Defoe was Irish he wouldn't get in the team anyway, the bane of his life would be ahead of him again, lol. And if he did I would bet he would be found out, as he pretty much is when he starts for England.

Defoe is a good finisher and will always get goals, but he's not better than Keane.

Jrio is just trying to start an argument. Nothing new there then.

[Spur]

But how many has defoe scored in the games he HAS played?? Undeniably he has scored 4 against Andorra and Trinidad and Tobago, so clearly he must be quality. Keane obviously can't match up with goals vs Germany, Czech Republic, Holland, Croatia, Spain and others can he? Why won't you admit that Keane is better when he has a better Spurs record and international record than defoe, even though Keane plays in an ireland team clearly not as good as England? You would think it would be easy for defoe in that sort of team, but apparently not....

The majority of caps that Defoe has got he has come off the bench. The majority of those (if not all) have been when the match has already finished ie we're 9-0 up and the ball is being knocked around for laughs. So that's a tad unfair when compared to Robbie Keane + the RoI where Keane is their only creative and dangerous player (except for Juan Roman Reid eh Choda ;) ).

So to compare a player who gets all the ball and a bit more, to a player who doesn't play and when does finally get on the pitch his teammates have gone home is a tad wrong in my book.

As for Spurs careers, they were effectively as good as each other.

[Spur]

That's nonsense mate, unless the teams you play are useless like it is with Australia and Jamaica. It's the biggest judge of a players standard, just like champions league. Not least because it is where the pressure is and that will push on weaknesses you have.
I disagree. Internationals are mainly pointless, the standard is terrible unless your in the quarters of the WC. All those matches against Bank Managers and their bodyguards aren't exactly testing. Andorra, Macedonia, and other pointless places like these (no offence to anyone from pointless Macedonia or pointless Andorra of course) just prove it.

How many did Crouch get against Jamaica? So his international record looks great and others look poor because he knocked in 14 against a sunday league team. Cracking.

That's why one is at Liverpool and one is at Portsmouth. That's why one consistently disappoints when he starts for England and the other has the same international record as Michael Owen as well as being in a different league to both of them as a creator.
I'll rephrase that for you - one is faltering at Liverpool and one is succeeding at Pompey. And you have 11 disappointments starting for England, lets not just pick at JD.

[jrio]

Defoe's not as good as Keane, simple as that, it was proven at spurs. He doesn't even score more than him as the stats for the same team prove (a direct comparison) and that is only half the story anyway because Keane has a brilliant football brain, Defoe doesn't.

That's why one is at Liverpool and one is at Portsmouth. That's why one consistently disappoints when he starts for England and the other has the same international record as Michael Owen as well as being in a different league to both of them as a creator.

One's scored 2 and made one, one's cost 19m, the other less than half. One's manager is pretty shrewd when buying players, the other, by choda's one admission, is pretty clumsy and uncertain. No argument, mate, it's already signed, sealed and delivered. :cool:

[Rojoknapp]

I disagree. Internationals are mainly pointless, the standard is terrible unless your in the quarters of the WC. All those matches against Bank Managers and their bodyguards aren't exactly testing. Andorra, Macedonia, and other pointless places like these (no offence to anyone from pointless Macedonia or pointless Andorra of course) just prove it.

Well if the standard is so awful why doesn't defoe score more?

[choda]

As for Reidy, you lot (well most of you) said he was a fat useless championship player and I said he was a very good player.

You just have to play him in his position, central midfield.

And I've been proven right because now he is back in the prem and pulling the strings every week. He's a class player and yes I still think he could become one of the best playmakers in the world. He has the talent. His touch, vision and passing are excellent and when he is buzzing it is sensational. And he has performed at his very best against Brazil and Germany no less, which is rather impressive.

Jrio said he wasn't worth the 4 million sunderland paid for him. Hahaha. Can spot a player that boy.

[Spur]

Well if the standard is so awful why doesn't defoe score more?

See both previous posts.

[jrio]

As for Reidy, you lot (well most of you) said he was a fat useless championship player and I said he was a very good player.

You just have to play him in his position, central midfield.

And I've been proven right because now he is back in the prem and pulling the strings every week. He's a class player and yes I still think he could become one of the best playmakers in the world. He has the talent. His touch, vision and passing are excellent and when he is buzzing it is sensational. And he has performed at his very best against Brazil and Germany no less, which is rather impressive.

Jrio said he wasn't worth the 4 million sunderland paid for him. Hahaha. Can spot a player that boy.
Not quite as I'd seen Reid many times for Forest in the Championship, but been disappointed in his application at Spurs. More than one player has joined Spurs and thought they'd made it. However, one Reid that did catch my eye was Stephen Reid, extremely impressive in marshalling the midfield. He'd looked capable on the right, both back and forward, but seemed very mature, in place of Andy, on Saturday.

Of course(in bold), that's sheer garbage with an Irish accent.

[Rojoknapp]

See both previous posts.

that doesn't explain anything at all. Clearly, the lower the standard, the more the goals.

With Keane's superior spurs and international record staring you in the face, why not just accept that keane is better?? When you say "struggling at pool, playing well at pompey or whatever, does that mean defoe is better than torres? Is he struggling too, because he hasn't scored yet? Why are you determined to insist that defoe is better contrary to all solid EVIDENCE. Why don't you want to admit he's better? What's it to you?

[jrio]

that doesn't explain anything at all. Clearly, the lower the standard, the more the goals.

With Keane's superior spurs and international record staring you in the face, why not just accept that keane is better?? When you say "struggling at pool, playing well at pompey or whatever, does that mean defoe is better than torres? Is he struggling too, because he hasn't scored yet? Why are you determined to insist that defoe is better contrary to all solid EVIDENCE. Why don't you want to admit he's better? What's it to you?
Scored v Sunderland first game. :o

[Rojoknapp]

Scored v Sunderland first game. :o

oops.:o really? weren't sunderland playing us first game?

either way, my point still stands. You get the gist, loads of strikers haven't scored yet. he would have been a really good example though :(

[choda]

I disagree. Internationals are mainly pointless, the standard is terrible unless your in the quarters of the WC. All those matches against Bank Managers and their bodyguards aren't exactly testing. Andorra, Macedonia, and other pointless places like these (no offence to anyone from pointless Macedonia or pointless Andorra of course) just prove it.

How many did Crouch get against Jamaica? So his international record looks great and others look poor because he knocked in 14 against a sunday league team. Cracking.


I'll rephrase that for you - one is faltering at Liverpool and one is succeeding at Pompey. And you have 11 disappointments starting for England, lets not just pick at JD.

Well I disagree for numerous reasons as already stated. For one thing it is the same records you are comparing between players of different european and south american countries. There are minnows for them all to play. I never mentioned JD's goal record in internationals, that was rojo.

I can state that he will be a disappointment from looking at his attributes. He is just a finisher, he's pretty limited, and yes he has disappointed in his 11 starts, the last one against the bank managers and leccies as you so elequently point out where he was taken off at half time for HESKEY! Keane is an all round excellent player, half of his game is creating goals and build up play, something Defoe is painful at, and he scores as many as Defoe as proven when we had a direct comparision when playing for the same team.

Defoe may look great on motd but it disguises a lot of ills which we saw when viewing his full games at spurs and england.

Do you honestly think Defoe could score more than Owen and Keane at international level? Remember you need good movement to create space against better defenders and well drilled defences desperate to do well for their countries.

He may just well score as many, though I doubt it, but he certainly won't be anywhere near as effective at bringing others into the game and creating goals.

Your argument is pretty hollow all round, especially the bit about four games at the start of the new season. :o

[Spur]

that doesn't explain anything at all. Clearly, the lower the standard, the more the goals.

With Keane's superior spurs and international record staring you in the face, why not just accept that keane is better?? When you say "struggling at pool, playing well at pompey or whatever, does that mean defoe is better than torres? Is he struggling too, because he hasn't scored yet? Why are you determined to insist that defoe is better contrary to all solid EVIDENCE. Why don't you want to admit he's better? What's it to you?

Actually, the evidence generally suggests that they are somewhat similar.

Jermain Defoe / Starts -88 / Subs - (51) / Goals - 43
Robbie Keane / Starts - 158 / Subs - (39) / Goals - 80

If I could be bothered I'd find the old goals to minutes ratios or the goals involved in to minutes ratios for all our strikers for the past few years as they make for interesting reading.

As you can see, from starts they have an extremely similar goal ratio. Including substitution appearances of course Robbie's is better than Jermain's though.

I'm not saying Defoe is better by the way. I'm just not saying Robbie is better.

And no, Jermain scoring two doesn't mean he is better than Torres either, nowhere did I say that. If I did it would mean Kevin Phillips was once the worlds greatest striker. Which, FYI, he wasn't.

And your missing the point regarding the internationals clearly, Jermain's # of caps doesn't represent the amount of games he has played in for England, because many of those caps - the vast majority - he was coming into a deadgame. Whereas for Ireland everything will go through Robbie because he's the only one that can do anything. And he starts week-in week-out. And plays every single second that he can.

[choda]

Not quite as I'd seen Reid many times for Forest in the Championship, but been disappointed in his application at Spurs. More than one player has joined Spurs and thought they'd made it. However, one Reid that did catch my eye was Stephen Reid, extremely impressive in marshalling the midfield. He'd looked capable on the right, both back and forward, but seemed very mature, in place of Andy, on Saturday.

Of course(in bold), that's sheer garbage with an Irish accent.

He was played out of position at spurs I don't blame him in the least. They should have realised after a while that should give him a go in the centre.

Stephen Reid is a very good player but not in the same position as he is the defensive midfielder. What we were crying out for was a passer of the ball in the middle. Instead Trap picked a stoke reserve. The country is up in arms over that one, people know how good little Andy is over here.

We are now very good without the ball but he picked the wrong team and we gave possession away far too easily.

[Rojoknapp]

And your missing the point regarding the internationals clearly, Jermain's # of caps doesn't represent the amount of games he has played in for England, because many of those caps - the vast majority - he was coming into a deadgame. Whereas for Ireland everything will go through Robbie because he's the only one that can do anything. And he starts week-in week-out. And plays every single second that he can.

But that is equalled out by defoe being in a better team than Keane surely? with the likes of gerrard, beckham, lampard, joe cole providing - and he should spend more time in the box because he doesn't have to drop deep and create things. (keane isn't ireland's only player btw, they play with 11)

[Spur]

Well I disagree for numerous reasons as already stated. For one thing it is the same records you are comparing between players of different european and south american countries. There are minnows for them all to play. I never mentioned JD's goal record in internationals, that was rojo.
Of course I don't dispute that, I haven't said anything of the sort. My gripe is against international records as a whole not certain parts of the world...bit confused as to where that one has come from tbh...?

I can state that he will be a disappointment from looking at his attributes. He is just a finisher, he's pretty limited, and yes he has disappointed in his 11 starts, the last one against the bank managers and leccies as you so elequently point out where he was taken off at half time for HESKEY! Keane is an all round excellent player, half of his game is creating goals and build up play, something Defoe is painful at, and he scores as many as Defoe as proven when we had a direct comparision when playing for the same team.
He's a striker, and from strikers you get finishing. His movement, well, he's a striker, he likes getting the ball at his feet and going to do something with it. He doesn't generally drop off and play others in, this is what makes him a striker rather than a forward. His goal record is extremely good for every team he has played for bar England, but for reasons stated in my eyes thats wiped off the record.

Let's not be picking on Jermain again, Gerrard looks pony for England yet he's one of if not the best midfielder in the world. Let's keep the ol' argument consistent chaps.

When Defoe was told to be a more team orientated player he was terrible! Sven proved to be his flaw by telling him to do that. Now he's back to his selfish best and scoring again! Funny that. And that's what he's there to do at the end of the day - ball - in - net. Goal, win, celebrate, Faces, get laggin', get laid, go home. Everyone's happy.

Your argument is pretty hollow all round, especially the bit about four games at the start of the new season. :o
Deny the argument being hollow, as you can see from the above it's pretty sound. But the 4 games thing, well that is hollow yes, but it's only reference for form isn't it, of which Defoe's is better than most.

And Rojo, I know your reading; Torres has scored - a belter against Sunderland on first day. He learnt that from Defoe though :cool:

[choda]

Actually, the evidence generally suggests that they are somewhat similar.

Jermain Defoe / Starts -88 / Subs - (51) / Goals - 43
Robbie Keane / Starts - 158 / Subs - (39) / Goals - 80

If I could be bothered I'd find the old goals to minutes ratios or the goals involved in to minutes ratios for all our strikers for the past few years as they make for interesting reading.

As you can see, from starts they have an extremely similar goal ratio. Including substitution appearances of course Robbie's is better than Jermain's though.

I'm not saying Defoe is better by the way. I'm just not saying Robbie is better.

And no, Jermain scoring two doesn't mean he is better than Torres either, nowhere did I say that. If I did it would mean Kevin Phillips was once the worlds greatest striker. Which, FYI, he wasn't.

And your missing the point regarding the internationals clearly, Jermain's # of caps doesn't represent the amount of games he has played in for England, because many of those caps - the vast majority - he was coming into a deadgame. Whereas for Ireland everything will go through Robbie because he's the only one that can do anything. And he starts week-in week-out. And plays every single second that he can.

If those are wikipedia stats they are probably false by the way. The Keane ones are accurate but they used to **** up the Defoe ones with his prem games and total goals for spurs. If they are roughly the same overall but Keane much better in the prem then that is what it was and was on the official website.

And it nothing to do with us going through Robbie only etc. We go through Robbie a lot like spurs did because he is a bloody good player. Spurs didn't go through Defoe because he wasn't able to do it and he isn't able to do it for England either.

He is just a finisher and often even mucks up the build up with his selfishness. Keane is a goalscorer (equal/better than Defoe as proven in the direct comparison at spurs) and is far better at the build up and creating situations. You'd have to be a blind man not to see it.

[Spur]

But that is equalled out by defoe being in a better team than Keane surely? with the likes of gerrard, beckham, lampard, joe cole providing - and he should spend more time in the box because he doesn't have to drop deep and create things. (keane isn't ireland's only player btw, they play with 11)

Defoe being in a better team? Have you watched England son?

Better players doesn't = better team. Fact of life.

[choda]

Keane scores goals, as many as Defoe, as the direct comparison in the same team points out, but Keane also creates many goals. Keane is better, very simple, end of story.

[Spur]

If those are wikipedia stats they are probably false by the way. The Keane ones are accurate but they used to **** up the Defoe ones with his prem games and total goals for spurs. If they are roughly the same overall but Keane much better in the prem then that is what it was and was on the official website.

And it nothing to do with us going through Robbie only etc. We go through Robbie a lot like spurs did because he is a bloody good player. Spurs didn't go through Defoe because he wasn't able to do it and he isn't able to do it for England either.

He is just a finisher and often even mucks up the build up with his selfishness. Keane is a goalscorer (equal/better than Defoe as proven in the direct comparison at spurs) and is far better at the build up and creating situations. You'd have to be a blind man not to see it.

It's a bit dumb/biased to say he is as good as Keane when he clearly isn't.
Stats are from Soccerbase.

I think you need to start looking at the bigger picture regarding Defoe if you think this. Is Defoe better than Bent because he scored more for Spurs? No, bent doens't fit the system at all and thats why he hasn't scored for us. Maybe Keane fitted the system better, in fact, pick him up and plump him on the south coast and will he score as many as JD? We've picked him up and put him up north and so far (a hollow 4 games in) he has failed to produce evidence he's worth the wrapping paper we wrapped him in. And let's turn the argument round again (this one's for Rojo as it's his argument) Keane has gone to a better team, whilst Defoe has gone to worse one, and yet JD is outscoring RK.

You know what I think Choda, I love(d) them both to bits, they are both blinding players - on their day. That's why half the Spurs support wanted Jermain starting and half wanted Robbie.

[Spur]

Keane scores goals, as many as Defoe, as the direct comparison in the same team points out, but Keane also creates many goals. Keane is better, very simple, end of story.

Very simplistic, expected more, end of discussion.

I'm getting some chocolate.

[Rojoknapp]

Stats are from Soccerbase.

I think you need to start looking at the bigger picture regarding Defoe if you think this. Is Defoe better than Bent because he scored more for Spurs? No, bent doens't fit the system at all and thats why he hasn't scored for us. Maybe Keane fitted the system better, in fact, pick him up and plump him on the south coast and will he score as many as JD? We've picked him up and put him up north and so far (a hollow 4 games in) he has failed to produce evidence he's worth the wrapping paper we wrapped him in. And let's turn the argument round again (this one's for Rojo as it's his argument) Keane has gone to a better team, whilst Defoe has gone to worse one, and yet JD is outscoring RK.

You know what I think Choda, I love(d) them both to bits, they are both blinding players - on their day. That's why half the Spurs support wanted Jermain starting and half wanted Robbie.

Defoe has had 6 months to settle in at pompey, keane has had 1. And as for england not being better than ireland, they have been to 2 major tournaments since ireland were last at 1, they are clearly better. You can't say defoe is better in the lesser team on the basis of 4 games, though he is in good form. I don't think he's a bad player, he''s just nowhere near keane's goalscoring and overall quality.

[jrio]

oops.:o really? weren't sunderland playing us first game?

either way, my point still stands. You get the gist, loads of strikers haven't scored yet. he would have been a really good example though :(

No, that was Boro away and Sunderland were playing Pool at home. You could have checked this online in about 2 minutes. I know choda never does but he's a jack of no trades and master of even less. :o

[Rojoknapp]

No, that was Boro away and Sunderland were playing Pool at home. You could have checked this online in about 2 minutes. I know choda never does but he's a jack of no trades and master of even less. :o

well you still get the gist :mad:

[choda]

Stats are from Soccerbase.

I think you need to start looking at the bigger picture regarding Defoe if you think this. Is Defoe better than Bent because he scored more for Spurs? No, bent doens't fit the system at all and thats why he hasn't scored for us. Maybe Keane fitted the system better, in fact, pick him up and plump him on the south coast and will he score as many as JD? We've picked him up and put him up north and so far (a hollow 4 games in) he has failed to produce evidence he's worth the wrapping paper we wrapped him in. And let's turn the argument round again (this one's for Rojo as it's his argument) Keane has gone to a better team, whilst Defoe has gone to worse one, and yet JD is outscoring RK.

You know what I think Choda, I love(d) them both to bits, they are both blinding players - on their day. That's why half the Spurs support wanted Jermain starting and half wanted Robbie.

People can talk all they want about systems etc. but they both scored at spurs, a lot, but Keane also created a lot. Will Defoe ever create? I can't see it.

And Keane's liverpool career needs a little time, don't you think? 4 games ffs, it's barely worth a mention. Torres flopped according to many and all of a sudden when Liverpool got their act together and Rafa picked the best team he had they got him some service and look what happened.

As for Bent he needs to get a long run in our side and then we can compare him. It's not even worth mentioning him in relation to how he has done as he hasn't gotten a real chance. If there are system issues, and there do appear to be, then it will be ironed out after a short time as the players get used to what each other do etc. and it will not be an excuse for him. He has to sink or swim. It's not like he is being played on the right wing.

[Spur]

Defoe has had 6 months to settle in at pompey, keane has had 1. And as for england not being better than ireland, they have been to 2 major tournaments since ireland were last at 1, they are clearly better. You can't say defoe is better in the lesser team on the basis of 4 games, though he is in good form. I don't think he's a bad player, he''s just nowhere near keane's goalscoring and overall quality.

Your ignoring the points about England.

He comes on when the games are over, when he starts he's shit along with 10 or 15 others who are also playing and are also shit, they win games but are shit. We will generally win with a set-piece because bank managers and farmers don't have the time nor the patience to practice such things. They have money and crops to attend to don't you know.

I would like someone to agree with me that on the basis of your argument Steven Gerrard is pony. It is something you must believe surely, afterall it's your own argument chaps. You know, shit at international level means shit in the real world.

I'll wait with baited breath on that one but presume I won't get a response which will ably put me down. Lets all go back to the 'he scored more than the other so he's better' argument of a 6-year-old. Using that Paul Robinson is one of the best goalkeepers in the world isn't he? Two goals. Can't keep 'em out but scores 'em for fun.

(I'll admit this one's a joke)

[choda]

No, that was Boro away and Sunderland were playing Pool at home. You could have checked this online in about 2 minutes. I know choda never does but he's a jack of no trades and master of even less. :o

Oh no, you are never a troll Jrio. LOL.

Just because I don't bother with editing at times or checking wikipedia or websites to CONFIRM stats it doesn't mean I can't. LOL.

I just have other things to do as well.

[Rojoknapp]

Your ignoring the points about England.

He comes on when the games are over, when he starts he's shit along with 10 or 15 others who are also playing and are also shit, they win games but are shit. We will generally win with a set-piece because bank managers and farmers don't have the time nor the patience to practice such things. They have money and crops to attend to don't you know.

I would like someone to agree with me that on the basis of your argument Steven Gerrard is pony. It is something you must believe surely, afterall it's your own argument chaps. You know, shit at international level means shit in the real world.

I'll wait with baited breath on that one but presume I won't get a response which will ably put me down. Lets all go back to the 'he scored more than the other so he's better' argument of a 6-year-old. Using that Paul Robinson is one of the best goalkeepers in the world isn't he? Two goals. Can't keep 'em out but scores 'em for fun.

(I'll admit this one's a joke)

Admittedly your steven gerrard argument is a very good point. Saying he's shit at international is a bit harsh, but no, he's not the same as in a pool shirt. However, we are comparing keane and defoe, and keane is excellent at international level, whereas defoe is poor. Keane was also a lot better for spurs than defoe, not many would deny that. And now, keane has moved to a champions league team for 20 million, while defoe has gone to portsmouth for considerably less, which would suggest that the transfer people at Spurs agree with me, as do Rafa Benitez and Harry Redknapp. When you say that saying one scored more than the other is a 6 year old argument, that's exactly what choda and i aren't saying. Choda has repeatedly stated that Keane's creativity, and assissts are also superior to defoe, who's link play is non-existent. Btw, i'm not trying to put you down, i just don't understand why anyone would believe that keane is not better than defoe, and am trying to convince you that he's in fact much better than JD.

[choda]

Your ignoring the points about England.

He comes on when the games are over, when he starts he's shit along with 10 or 15 others who are also playing and are also shit, they win games but are shit. We will generally win with a set-piece because bank managers and farmers don't have the time nor the patience to practice such things. They have money and crops to attend to don't you know.

I would like someone to agree with me that on the basis of your argument Steven Gerrard is pony. It is something you must believe surely, afterall it's your own argument chaps. You know, shit at international level means shit in the real world.

I'll wait with baited breath on that one but presume I won't get a response which will ably put me down. Lets all go back to the 'he scored more than the other so he's better' argument of a 6-year-old. Using that Paul Robinson is one of the best goalkeepers in the world isn't he? Two goals. Can't keep 'em out but scores 'em for fun.

(I'll admit this one's a joke)

He hasn't really had a chance for England, I said that about 10 posts ago, which makes it a bit of a nul point on either side of the debate. But what I did say is that I can't see him doing better than Keane since he didn't for spurs and international football is more technical. Yes even against minnows, why do you think England even struggle against them.

The pace of the prem makes it very hustle and bustle and not very technical.

[Spur]

Admittedly your steven gerrard argument is a very good point. Saying he's shit at international is a bit harsh, but no, he's not the same as in a pool shirt. However, we are comparing keane and defoe, and keane is excellent at international level, whereas defoe is poor. Keane was also a lot better for spurs than defoe, not many would deny that. And now, keane has moved to a champions league team for 20 million, while defoe has gone to portsmouth for considerably less, which would suggest that the transfer people at Spurs agree with me, as do Rafa Benitez and Harry Redknapp. When you say that saying one scored more than the other is a 6 year old argument, that's exactly what choda and i aren't saying. Choda has repeatedly stated that Keane's creativity, and assissts are also superior to defoe, who's link play is non-existent. Btw, i'm not trying to put you down, i just don't understand why anyone would believe that keane is not better than defoe, and am trying to convince you that he's in fact much better than JD.

Well it won't work as I see greatness in both.

I see weaknesses in both too but that's because I'm a smart arse ******.

[jrio]

Oh no, you are never a troll Jrio. LOL.

Just because I don't bother with editing at times or checking wikipedia or websites to CONFIRM stats it doesn't mean I can't. LOL.

I just have other things to do as well.
Hey, this guy's demolishing you and you've still got time to have a pop at me! Point made. ;)

[choda]

Admittedly your steven gerrard argument is a very good point. Saying he's shit at international is a bit harsh, but no, he's not the same as in a pool shirt. However, we are comparing keane and defoe, and keane is excellent at international level, whereas defoe is poor. Keane was also a lot better for spurs than defoe, not many would deny that. And now, keane has moved to a champions league team for 20 million, while defoe has gone to portsmouth for considerably less, which would suggest that the transfer people at Spurs agree with me, as do Rafa Benitez and Harry Redknapp. When you say that saying one scored more than the other is a 6 year old argument, that's exactly what choda and i aren't saying. Choda has repeatedly stated that Keane's creativity, and assissts are also superior to defoe, who's link play is non-existent. Btw, i'm not trying to put you down, i just don't understand why anyone would believe that keane is not better than defoe, and am trying to convince you that he's in fact much better than JD.

Yes, saying he expects more is patronising since we made a decent argument with many irrefutable points, and I just summed it up and then he says it was simplistic.

[Rojoknapp]

Well it won't work as I see greatness in both.

I see weaknesses in both too but that's because I'm a smart arse ******.

bit of a stalemate then really. :( i cba anymore anyway so that's probably good. i'm sure this debate will re-open at some point anyway so im off.

[jrio]

Btw, i'm not trying to put you down, i just don't understand why anyone would believe that keane is not better than defoe, and am trying to convince you that he's in fact much better than JD.
We all know who's the Pride of Merseyside - 2 goals and an assist to nothing. ;) :o

I mean, that's one game to how many? :eek:

[Spur]

He hasn't really had a chance for England, I said that about 10 posts ago, which makes it a bit of a nul point on either side of the debate. But what I did say is that I can't see him doing better than Keane since he didn't for spurs and international football is more technical. Yes even against minnows, why do you think England even struggle against them.

The pace of the prem makes it very hustle and bustle and not very technical.

He did for Spurs though. He arguably saved us from relegation when he joined, and overall popped in 43 goals in the league from 88 starts. In my book that's doing it and that's doing it damn well. From a stats point of view of course. Now you realise for your own argument lads, that stats aren't the be all and end all.

[choda]

Hey, this guy's demolishing you and you've still got time to have a pop at me! Point made. ;)

RALMAO. Always have to say something don't you, however deluded. What's the mattur lickle Jwio, got nobody to pjay with? :(

[choda]

He did for Spurs though. He arguably saved us from relegation when he joined, and overall popped in 43 goals in the league from 88 starts. In my book that's doing it and that's doing it damn well. From a stats point of view of course. Now you realise for your own argument lads, that stats aren't the be all and end all.

Didn't do better for spurs than Keane did, not didn't score the goals for us which he clearly did, and isn't something I argued with.

[choda]

bit of a stalemate then really. :( i cba anymore anyway so that's probably good. i'm sure this debate will re-open at some point anyway so im off.

F*ck that, I took out my c*ck and pissed on spur's argument. :p :D

[jrio]

RALMAO. Always have to say something don't you, however deluded. What's the macker lickle Jwio, got nobody to pjay with? :(

Always plenty to play with, and I'm not even playing. If you've got a sore arse, and you most certainly have, it's because Spur's given it a pretty good kicking. :D

And it's "pway with". Pjay makes no sense.

[jrio]

F*ck that, I took out my c*ck and pissed on spur's argument. :p :D

Half of that's your problem. :eek:

[Spur]

Didn't do better for spurs than Keane did, not didn't score the goals for us which he clearly did, and isn't something I argued with.

Fine, but the real point is Jermain was there to score goals. He did it, he was a success. He tried to change for the system and couldn't. The system was built for Robbie and funnily enough he adapted to it.

Defoe goes elsewhere, plays his own way and starts doing better than the Irish Ronaldo. Coincidence? Yeah ok, a hollow 4 games in but I'm going on form now so it sticks. He's doing better.

Rojo, you say Keane needs time to settle in. Defoe keeps scoring on debuts, he doesn't need time to settle in clearly.

Your pretty much comparing two different players who play in two different positions.

Anyway, wasn't Bent involved in more goals than Berbatov last year? Doesn't make him the better player does it.

I'm going to have to find those striker stats aren't I?

Done:

Minutes per goal contributed to X pens
Bent 117.07
Keane 119.38
Berbatov 138.58

Bent's better than everyone. Case closed.

[berbzy 'G']

Fine, but the real point is Jermain was there to score goals. He did it, he was a success. He tried to change for the system and couldn't. The system was built for Robbie and funnily enough he adapted to it.

Defoe goes elsewhere, plays his own way and starts doing better than the Irish Ronaldo. Coincidence? Yeah ok, a hollow 4 games in but I'm going on form now so it sticks. He's doing better.

Rojo, you say Keane needs time to settle in. Defoe keeps scoring on debuts, he doesn't need time to settle in clearly.

Your pretty much comparing two different players who play in two different positions.

Anyway, wasn't Bent involved in more goals than Berbatov last year? Doesn't make him the better player does it.

I'm going to have to find those striker stats aren't I?

Done:


Bent's better than everyone. Case closed.

I'm sure someone on here will be preparing a very long post to argue with that :eek:

[TURKISH]

Spur every post read and great points imo.

[choda]

Fine, but the real point is Jermain was there to score goals. He did it, he was a success. He tried to change for the system and couldn't. The system was built for Robbie and funnily enough he adapted to it.

Defoe goes elsewhere, plays his own way and starts doing better than the Irish Ronaldo. Coincidence? Yeah ok, a hollow 4 games in but I'm going on form now so it sticks. He's doing better.

Rojo, you say Keane needs time to settle in. Defoe keeps scoring on debuts, he doesn't need time to settle in clearly.

Your pretty much comparing two different players who play in two different positions.

Anyway, wasn't Bent involved in more goals than Berbatov last year? Doesn't make him the better player does it.

I'm going to have to find those striker stats aren't I?

Done:


Bent's better than everyone. Case closed.

Actually since Bent is an out and out goalscorer and if he is doing his job you would expect him to score more than the other two.

But he's just not as good a player as he doesn't also create almost as many, which the other two do. Now, Defoe didn't score more than Keane here as an out and out goalscorer, so you will never convince that he is better than Keane. He aint buddy.

Some people will come back to me and say a Bent or an Owen on song will make up for the lack of link play by creating space for other people with power or intelligent off the ball movement. That in essence they are a different kind of forward. And I do concede that is the case and it becomes harder to judge.

But Defoe does not have power or good movement either, he almost always just reacts to situations late on or goes with the ball on his own, so you can't present that as a case. He just shoots from everywhere or turns brilliantly in the box. He does very little extra for the teams he plays in other than score many goals, but not more than any of these other good strikers, which is my point. ;)

Or if he does start to score more it just goes back to Bent, who scores more but isn't overall as effective as Keane because he doesn't do enough for the team - as of yet anyway. They will always have to be judged on a whole. If Defoe starts to score more than Keane and rips teams ashred with movement ala a young Owen then I will have to concede he is as good as him, but in the last five years that is far removed from reality.

He scores a similar amount but does far less for the team. Case re-opened and now closed with a far more realistic verdict. :p :cool:

[Rojoknapp]

i like darren bent. i didnt know about the goals per minutes stat but i thought everyone was very tough on him last year and i didnt think he did as badly as everyone thought on the goals per game ratio, but i didnt realise it was that good. As for Jrio sayin 2 goals and an assisst to no goals and no assissts, can i assume that you have deliberately decided to omit 5 years of keane at spurs from your memory, in favour of comparing two players on the basis of 4 games? Because if so, why don't we sign Gunnar Steinsson - the Bolton CB, after all, he's scored more than Keane this year so he must be a good striker. :D

[mjbmedia]

Keanes an over rated piece of shit, always has been hence why he never made it at a quality club like Inter and had to come home to the UK where people are more easily sucked in (easy Jrio!)

Him and Berbs are against each other this weekend i think , bet niether of them score, bet Pav does, bet Defoe does

[Spur]

Spur every post read and great points imo.

Damn ****ing right mate.

[Spur]

Actually since Bent is an out and out goalscorer and if he is doing his job you would expect him to score more than the other two.

But he's just not as good a player as he doesn't also create almost as many, which the other two do. Now, Defoe didn't score more than Keane here as an out and out goalscorer, so you will never convince that he is better than Keane. He aint buddy.
Defoe is an out-an-out goalscorer though. So if you can't compare Keane to Bent how can you compare him to JD?

And your wrong anyway, those stats that I brought here are minutes to goals CONTRIBUTED to, not minutes to goals SCORED. Bent was involved in more goals than both Keane and Berba last year - FACT. Therefore he is our most influential and best striker!

Or if he does start to score more it just goes back to Bent, who scores more but isn't overall as effective as Keane because he doesn't do enough for the team - as of yet anyway. They will always have to be judged on a whole. If Defoe starts to score more than Keane and rips teams ashred with movement ala a young Owen then I will have to concede he is as good as him, but in the last five years that is far removed from reality.

Re: DB see above.

And in comparison - Defoe IS ripping teams apart (has been since he joined Pompey), whereas it's arguable Keane only did it when next to Berba, and can't do it next to anyone else. Oh, that's a new point that one. Must be this logging on early doors :cool:

[olly27]

Two completely different players who will be extremely effective, in there own right, in the correct system. I loved Keane but I have Defoe in my fantasy team as captain! Why?...cos he will get twenty goals at least this season.

Defoe is a striker, Robbie is a forward. Each come with there own merits. I remember the Charlton game at the Valley two seasons ago, you know when Berbatov scored that sublime goal. The second goal came from Defoe, and just before he smashed it from 25 yards I was shouting at the TV...pass the ball, pass....then boom it was in the back of the net. Sometimes that outweighs overplaying and creating...when someone decisive/selfish just emphatically goes for it. Of course there were numerous occassions when he messed up when an easy pass was on and an opportunity was spurned. Keane is a much more intelligent footballer and has more to his game but they are different players whereby their overall contributions differ. Both really good players(neither world class though) for me and if used correctly can be eqaully as effective.

[Spur]

Two completely different players who will be extremely effective, in there own right, in the correct system. I loved Keane but I have Defoe in my fantasy team as captain! Why?...cos he will get twenty goals at least this season.

Defoe is a striker, Robbie is a forward. Each come with there own merits. I remember the Charlton game at the Valley two seasons ago, you know when Berbatov scored that sublime goal. The second goal came from Defoe, and just before he smashed it from 25 yards I was shouting at the TV...pass the ball, pass....then boom it was in the back of the net. Sometimes that outweighs overplaying and creating...when someone decisive/selfish just emphatically goes for it. Of course there were numerous occassions when he messed up when an easy pass was on and an opportunity was spurned. Keane is a much more intelligent footballer and has more to his game but they are different players whereby their overall contributions differ. Both really good players(neither world class though) for me and if used correctly can be eqaully as effective.

Nail. Head.

That's what I've been saying.

Although you forgot to mention there are just as many times when Keane has fluffed up as Defoe has. It's the reason people were split on who should play.

[olly27]

Nail. Head.

That's what I've been saying.

Although you forgot to mention there are just as many times when Keane has fluffed up as Defoe has. It's the reason people were split on who should play.

Agreed. However when Berba arrived and established that fantastic relationship with Keane there was only ever going to be one winner...ie..Keane. Two great footballing brains working in sync with one another was never going to be threatened. Systems and the compatibility of other players play a crucial role when making these decsions.

[choda]

Keanes an over rated piece of shit, always has been hence why he never made it at a quality club like Inter and had to come home to the UK where people are more easily sucked in (easy Jrio!)

Him and Berbs are against each other this weekend i think , bet niether of them score, bet Pav does, bet Defoe does

I think you will find he never made it at inter because he was nineteen and behind Vieri, Ronaldo, Recoba and some other world class striker at the time. Plus the person who signed him, Lippi, was sacked after three games.

Keane's a class player as his record and stack of player of the year awards proves, and one thing I can't argue is that Defoe is a great little goalscorer, the facts prove it.

Some fancy one more than the other, I can't really fathom how people could think Defoe is better, and I don't say that with any bias, but that's just me.

[choda]

Defoe is an out-an-out goalscorer though. So if you can't compare Keane to Bent how can you compare him to JD?

And your wrong anyway, those stats that I brought here are minutes to goals CONTRIBUTED to, not minutes to goals SCORED. Bent was involved in more goals than both Keane and Berba last year - FACT. Therefore he is our most influential and best striker!



Re: DB see above.

And in comparison - Defoe IS ripping teams apart (has been since he joined Pompey), whereas it's arguable Keane only did it when next to Berba, and can't do it next to anyone else. Oh, that's a new point that one. Must be this logging on early doors :cool:

Okay well that is interesting but Bent is not our best and most influential striker because he has a better minutes to involvement in goals. There has to be a reason for that, such as when he comes on we are usually chasing a goal or something, because last year he was clearly not more effective than Keane or Berb. On thing that stats don't show is that the ball never stuck when he was on the pitch. It was through Keane and Berb that almost all our attacking moves started in the first place, you can't deny it.

And I don't agree that Defoe is ripping teams apart. He is scoring goals and fair play to him but I don't still don't see great movement and link play.

He will look like Messi on motd, that's Defoe. He doesn't look anywhere near that over 90 minutes when you look at everything he brings to the team. I don't think he is a guy that is top four standard, I do think Keane is, that's my opinion and do believe it is far more backed up by the evidence than what you are saying. And I don't just mean stats but also observation of all that they do for the team and how their careers have gone.

And saying Keane fluffed up as often as Defoe in the build up well that's just rubbish. To anyone who isn't focusing on the negatives would see that he was seen as the linchpin of most of spurs good play. The thing that tied it all together when Berbatov was off sulking.

It will be very interesting to see how he does at Liverpool. This is his chance to prove once and for all that he is a top player, but with some people you wonder what he would have to do.

[Rojoknapp]

Okay well that is interesting but Bent is not our best and most influential striker because he has a better minutes to involvement in goals. There has to be a reason for that, such as when he comes on we are usually chasing a goal or something, because last year he was clearly not more effective than Keane or Berb. On thing that stats don't show is that the ball never stuck when he was on the pitch. It was through Keane and Berb that almost all our attacking moves started in the first place, you can't deny it.

And I don't agree that Defoe is ripping teams apart. He is scoring goals and fair play to him but I don't still don't see great movement and link play.

He will look like Messi on motd, that's Defoe. He doesn't look anywhere near that over 90 minutes when you look at everything he brings to the team. I don't think he is a guy that is top four standard, I do think Keane is, that's my opinion and do believe it is far more backed up by the evidence than what you are saying. And I don't just mean stats but also observation of all that they do for the team and how their careers have gone.

And saying Keane fluffed up as often as Defoe in the build up well that's just rubbish. To anyone who isn't focusing on the negatives would see that he was seen as the linchpin of most of spurs good play. The thing that tied it all together when Berbatov was off sulking.

It will be very interesting to see how he does at Liverpool. This is his chance to prove once and for all that he is a top player, but with some people you wonder what he would have to do.

ALL TRUE. And the last sentence is a very good point, he's been underrated throughout his career, by everyone except the managers of the teams he plays for (you know, the people who are unbelievably knowledgeable about football and who have every stat under the sun available to them.)
And did nobody notice that SO many of those times that we conceded late on were after Keane had gone off and 4 or 5 minutes later the other team had come back into the game?

[berbzy 'G']

Okay well that is interesting but Bent is not our best and most influential striker because he has a better minutes to involvement in goals. There has to be a reason for that, such as when he comes on we are usually chasing a goal or something, because last year he was clearly not more effective than Keane or Berb. On thing that stats don't show is that the ball never stuck when he was on the pitch. It was through Keane and Berb that almost all our attacking moves started in the first place, you can't deny it.

And I don't agree that Defoe is ripping teams apart. He is scoring goals and fair play to him but I don't still don't see great movement and link play.

He will look like Messi on motd, that's Defoe. He doesn't look anywhere near that over 90 minutes when you look at everything he brings to the team. I don't think he is a guy that is top four standard, I do think Keane is, that's my opinion and do believe it is far more backed up by the evidence than what you are saying. And I don't just mean stats but also observation of all that they do for the team and how their careers have gone.

And saying Keane fluffed up as often as Defoe in the build up well that's just rubbish. To anyone who isn't focusing on the negatives would see that he was seen as the linchpin of most of spurs good play. The thing that tied it all together when Berbatov was off sulking.

It will be very interesting to see how he does at Liverpool. This is his chance to prove once and for all that he is a top player, but with some people you wonder what he would have to do.

Im not going to do a Segio Rebrov, but very good points for an Irishman choda :cool:

[Spur]

Okay well that is interesting but Bent is not our best and most influential striker because he has a better minutes to involvement in goals. There has to be a reason for that, such as when he comes on we are usually chasing a goal or something, because last year he was clearly not more effective than Keane or Berb. On thing that stats don't show is that the ball never stuck when he was on the pitch. It was through Keane and Berb that almost all our attacking moves started in the first place, you can't deny it.

I'm not denying that, I agree. But that's because the system suited them. Hence Bent not doing very well last year (despite statistically being the best - bang goes the goal ratio argument) as he doesn't fit it either(neither did Jermain if you didn't notice).

And I don't agree that Defoe is ripping teams apart. He is scoring goals and fair play to him but I don't still don't see great movement and link play.
That's what I meant by ripping them apart, I didn't mean it in a dribbling through everyone sense.

He will look like Messi on motd, that's Defoe. He doesn't look anywhere near that over 90 minutes when you look at everything he brings to the team. I don't think he is a guy that is top four standard, I do think Keane is, that's my opinion and do believe it is far more backed up by the evidence than what you are saying. And I don't just mean stats but also observation of all that they do for the team and how their careers have gone.
Like Messi!?!? We should've kept him, I didn't realise he was that good at times. You must really rate him Choda.

If your looking for someone like Keane to do what Keane does over 90 minutes then fairplay, but to do what Defoe does, or Bent does for that matter, then no, your correct. But that surely, surely, doesn't make them bad players does it? Not playing like Keane I mean.

And saying Keane fluffed up as often as Defoe in the build up well that's just rubbish. To anyone who isn't focusing on the negatives would see that he was seen as the linchpin of most of spurs good play. The thing that tied it all together when Berbatov was off sulking.
In the build up? I'm more talking putting chances away now you mention it.

But fluffing up is fluffing up in my book, if you fluff up, you've fluffed up, no matter what it is your fluffing up at, you've definitely fluffed it.

It will be very interesting to see how he does at Liverpool. This is his chance to prove once and for all that he is a top player, but with some people you wonder what he would have to do.
It is, your right, and I have no doubt he will show us how good he is, but if he doesn't I will enjoy it all the same.

[Spur]

ALL TRUE. And the last sentence is a very good point, he's been underrated throughout his career, by everyone except the managers of the teams he plays for (you know, the people who are unbelievably knowledgeable about football and who have every stat under the sun available to them.)
And did nobody notice that SO many of those times that we conceded late on were after Keane had gone off and 4 or 5 minutes later the other team had come back into the game?

No he's not. Everyone loves him, he was a legend for this club, an utter fan favourite.

I was even going to get his name on my back this year before he upped and left to get burgled for laughs. Bastard.

[Rojoknapp]

No he's not. Everyone loves him, he was a legend for this club, an utter fan favourite.

I was even going to get his name on my back this year before he upped and left to get burgled for laughs. Bastard.

if he wasn't underrated then everyone would see that he's better than defoe, this argument wouldn't exist. More people than you would think share the view of mjbmedia that he's "an overrated piece of shit" which is obviously bullshit.

[Spur]

if he wasn't underrated then everyone would see that he's better than defoe, this argument wouldn't exist. More people than you would think share the view of mjbmedia that he's "an overrated piece of shit" which is obviously bullshit.

You fail to see that the people currently having the argument all rate him very highly.

[Rojoknapp]

You fail to see that the people currently having the argument all rate him very highly.

but you don't rate him more highly than defoe, and i believe that means you're underrating him a lot.

[choda]

I'm not denying that, I agree. But that's because the system suited them. Hence Bent not doing very well last year (despite statistically being the best - bang goes the goal ratio argument) as he doesn't fit it either(neither did Jermain if you didn't notice).


That's what I meant by ripping them apart, I didn't mean it in a dribbling through everyone sense.


Like Messi!?!? We should've kept him, I didn't realise he was that good at times. You must really rate him Choda.

If your looking for someone like Keane to do what Keane does over 90 minutes then fairplay, but to do what Defoe does, or Bent does for that matter, then no, your correct. But that surely, surely, doesn't make them bad players does it? Not playing like Keane I mean.


In the build up? I'm more talking putting chances away now you mention it.

But fluffing up is fluffing up in my book, if you fluff up, you've fluffed up, no matter what it is your fluffing up at, you've definitely fluffed it.


It is, your right, and I have no doubt he will show us how good he is, but if he doesn't I will enjoy it all the same.

First of all I want to state that I think talk of systems is kind of rubbish to be honest. There's an element of a new team or player gelling and service but anything else is guff as far as I'm concerned.

If I mentioned systems that is what I meant, getting used to your teammates or new formations etc. not anything else.

Football is based on the same principles where ever you are. Okay some teams don't play football and you can exempt some strikers from blame when that is the case, but otherwise you can't as I see it.

Defoe was here for years and tottenham have for the most part given the strikers plenty of service and support. You could see his positives and his negatives when he was here and any other time I have seen him play. He's a good fox in box with the ball but pretty appalling outside the box, so brainless and selfish and he doesn't do nearly enough in creating space off the ball.

He will always get goals because of his finishing, but that doesn't make him a fantastic forward, it's not JUST about goals. As far as I am concerned to be that you also have to have more.

There is a bit of apples and oranges when comparing Defoe/Bent and Keane. I appreciate that and stated it, and of course it doesn't automatically make them bad, but you still have to bring their own set of team attributes or they do come up short of Keane, who has his quality link play and movement as well as scoring the goals.

A young Michael Owen for example was an out and out goalscorer who also ripped teams apart with his movement on the shoulder. That created space for himself and others and adding that to scoring more than a Keane as he is an out and out striker then that comes out about equal to me. But Defoe has very little else to his game, hence he still can't establish himself in the England team even though there has been a major opportunity for him with Owen's injuries.

And you say a fluff is a fluff and you are right, but if Keane's record is similar for goalscoring and is admittedly far better at linking up the play and movement then something is missing here and it is this: Keane is more effective because he links the play, brings other people in and this with his movement creates so many chances for himself and others. He may not take as many, and this is also debatable in recent years given some very prolific stats, but overall he does much more.

Two forwards to contend with but in my opinion it is pretty easy to see who is better and has nothing to do with systems.

I don't think Defoe is on the same level at all actually.

If Bent starts running teams ragged and they have great trouble dealing with his power, the ball sticks better and he scores a lot then we will have to review whether he is as good as Keane, but not until then, at present he is certainly not on the same level. I actually think he has a far better chance of reaching that level than Defoe, who I simply think just doesn't have it in his locker.

Yea, he'll probably continue to smack goals in from all angles on motd, have lots of hammershot near misses and people will say he is 'amazing' and is 'ripping' teams apart but I think it's more titillation than 90 minutes of doing the right things for the best reward of the team.

To me it's very similar to people watching the 'best' league in the world every week played at 200mph and marvelling at it. Sure, it's exciting and the money has brought in the best players but the ball is given away all the time and then people wonder what is wrong with the england team. It's the culture, it's the idea of football is, that's what is wrong.

If Defoe annoys me, it's not because of what he is, it's because of what people think he is.

I think it's also the same as people saying Lampard is a 'great' player, and pointing to his goal record. But it is about more than individual goals, especially for a midfielder, the best midfielders are Essien, Scholes, Fabregas, Xavi and people like that.

[choda]

I've edited my last post after acting like a blowhole! :o Sometimes one should re-read their own posts properly.

[Spur]

I've edited my last post after acting like a blowhole! :o Sometimes one should re-read properly.

Oh, I only read it the once but thought I wouldn't reply as you were acting like a blowhole.

I may give it a read in the morning to see if you've changed your ways :D

[choda]

Oh, I only read it the once but thought I wouldn't reply as you were acting like a blowhole.

I may give it a read in the morning to see if you've changed your ways :D

Charming. :D