Sorry state of affairs...

[Gregzy]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6376121.stm

Doesn't say much for the alleged equal opportuny ideolgy the FA would like to claim.....

The article is spot on, in my opinion, other than when it describes a barrister as being self-employed. All Barristers are, technically at least, self-employes....

[wayne wonder]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6376121.stm

Doesn't say much for the alleged equal opportuny ideolgy the FA would like to claim.....

The article is spot on, in my opinion, other than when it describes a barrister as being self-employed. All Barristers are, technically at least, self-employes....

Just read that and it's spot on it's almost shameful!!

[Spur]

I think that it's shameful and wrong to even point it out. How about the fact that there just isn't a black coach good enough?

Maybe there's not an institutional racism course that chairmen go on, maybe there just aren't enough good black coaches...9 out of 1million? That's not going to get you very far.

[RuFuS]

I think that it's shameful and wrong to even point it out. How about the fact that there just isn't a black coach good enough?.

Stop being sensible

Why hasn't there been a really good white heavy weight boxing champion for years ? Because they're are no good that's why.Not because they're white!!

[Spur]

Stop being sensible

Why hasn't there been a really good white heavy weight boxing champion for years ? Because they're are no good that's why.Not because they're white!!

Excellent comparison.

I think Sir Les sums it up when he says there are no black people on the courses. How do they expect to get the jobs if they don't have the qualifications?

[jrio]

Stop being sensible

Why hasn't there been a really good white heavy weight boxing champion for years ? Because they're are no good that's why.Not because they're white!!

Wrong. White people have more options for gainful employment and so now naturally avoid a profession where they would get beaten up for a living, and potentially suffer severe long-term health problems. Maybe you've noticed how a disproportionate number of the people in low paid menial jobs are black?

[Spur]

Wrong. White people have more options for gainful employment and so naturally avoid a profession where they would get beaten up for a living, and potentially suffer severe long-term health problems.

My friend, round my way where I live I know a great many people (white) who's aim in life is to be a pro-boxer.

Do they make it? That would be a no.

Where I work employs probably about 50 people. One is black, maybe another 3 mixed race. Does that make my employer racist for picking majority white people? No it doesn't. He's looking out for his business and picking the ones fit for the job.

[RuFuS]

Maybe you've noticed how a disproportionate number of the people in low paid menial jobs are black?

What has that got to do with having talent and making the most of it ?

[mjbmedia]

errr ok anyone remember Stockport County a certain Carlton Palmer took over as manager there when they were in the then 1st division (championship now) he took them down with dire points total then down again before being sacked. a season or so later he came back and took them down to the now 2nd (lowest) division where they are still languishing . o and he also left them totally bankrupt not bad management skills then :p

[shakey18]

So the managers of Torquay and Maccelsfield are the only Black managers.Why don't we have a look at where those teams are in the entire football league.Torquay are bottom and Maccelesfield are 4th from bottom.It's got nothing to do with race, as most football fans have black players they idolise-Leds being a prime example for ALL of us.It's all about if you're good enough, not the colour of your skin.Should we employ managers who are crap JUST because they are black?.NO.If they are good enough their skin colour is not a consideration.We need to cut this "positive descrimination" crap from the agenda, and employ only the BEST people for the job-reguardless of colour.

[jrio]

So the managers of Torquay and Maccelsfield are the only Black managers.Why don't we have a look at where those teams are in the entire football league.Torquay are bottom and Maccelesfield are 4th from bottom.It's got nothing to do with race, as most football fans have black players they idolise-Leds being a prime example for ALL of us.It's all about if you're good enough, not the colour of your skin.Should we employ managers who are crap JUST because they are black?.NO.If they are good enough their skin colour is not a consideration.We need to cut this "positive descrimination" crap from the agenda, and employ only the BEST people for the job-reguardless of colour.
Fans don't appoint managers, chairmen do. Keith Curle has only just joined the club. Torquay's previous manager was a Czech coach, Lubos Kubik, who lasted 15 games and whose record was no victories and 2 draws. Prior to that was Ian Atkins who saved the club from relegation last season but was at the helm as they dropped into the bottom places. They are both white. Leroy Rosenior, whom Atkins took over from and is black, had taken the club to League One 2 seasons before but they went straight back down. Similarly Paul Ince took over Macclesfield when they were bottom of the table so he has taken them out of the relegation places. Virtually all managers fail at some stage. Black managers seem to get completely written off after their first failure yet which manager got a new post this week? Iain Dowie, who lasted barely a third of the season with Charlton after keeping them in the bottom 2 and had previously been in a slump with Palace.

I've no doubt the same comments would have been aimed at foreign managers over 15 years ago after Josef Venglos failed at Villa, yet now our most successful managers come from the continent. Plenty of them have failed here too. I believe Spurs had one or two. The most pertinent comment is from Viv Anderson describing football as a "..a closed shop where chairmen appoint managers they know and are comfortable with, and the managers choose their own backroom staff". Anyone remember how many black players there were in Division One before West Brom had their trio during the 70s? Did black players only become good enough after the 70s? No, as in a number of professions competitive advantage was gained by giving them opportunities and everyone followed suit to keep up.

[shakey18]

Jrio,some very pertinent points mate, but we have to ask how many black people actually apply for the jobs that are on offer?.Leroy Rosenior is an exception, as he apllied for loads of management jobs whilst he was a coach at Bristol City,my home town club of Exeter City being one.I'm sure there are black coaches who would make excellent managers, but until they start applying for the jobs things won't change.It's no good Ince moaning about the lack of black managers, if they don't apply.I've no doubt that there are chairmen who'd rather not appoint black managers, but we need a few trailblazers like the players from the 70's, who put up with all sorts of shocking shit, and opened the door for other black players to come into the professional game.Without the likes of Cyrille Regis, Lawie Cunningham et al, we'd have a lot less black players in the game.Things need to change, and black coaches can help by applying for everything.

[Spur]

Ferdinand himself said there were no black people on the courses. If there's none on the courses, there's none applying for jobs. They need the qualifications, which they don't have, leading to them not having a job. Way to simple.

NFL is 70% black. Perhaps that racist toward the white man then? No I don't think so either. It's laughable to suggest it. Just as it is laughable to suggest football is. As it goes this Super Bowl just last month was the first black coach to win it. Does that not tell you something? Maybe black people just don't want to be managers?

Chairmen appoint who they know? Pretty much every business you have to know people. It's not what you know it's who you know. In football that is even more so true as I have discovered in depth over the past year.

Dowie getting a job at a team with aspirations of going up is quite a surprise isn't it? Not like he's ever got a team promoted before!?!?

I'm not a racist, but one major thing I dislike in life is when people blame the colour of their skin for something they have failed in. It's so easy to do.

[DiamondGeezer]

My theory on this subject is that there was alot less black players thirty years ago from what i hear, i dont know i have grown up in a ver multi-cultaral society so i dont know, but im sure within the next 10 years the game will become alot more multi-cultural for the staff at clubs like the playing staff has over the last few years.

[Ioang]

Some people here have got such an utterly warped view of racism its untrue. Its not all white ******s beating up immigrants in the backstreets - if black players feel they arent going to get a job then they arent going to go on the courses. Simple as, of course no ones promoting positive discrimination but the statistics speak utterly for themselves!

[RuFuS]

Fans don't appoint managers, chairmen do.

So there are a minority of black managers because of the chairmen !!!!!
what B0!!0CKs.

The Chairman who spent £??k for the player and then pays £??k per week to the player. Would then not have them as the manager or coach because of the colour of their skin.

What rubbish!!!!

[RuFuS]

Anyone remember how many black players there were in Division One before West Brom had their trio during the 70s? Did black players only become good enough after the 70s?

That's a genrational thing. When people started to emigrate to Britain in the mid 50's, it was their sons who got into big time football some 20 or so years later.

There is no colour bar in football. If your good enough you'll get in, simple as that.

[Spur]

if black players feel they arent going to get a job then they arent going to go on the courses.

If that's the way black people feel then they have no-one to blame but themselves. Martin Luther King would be spinning in his grave.

[neilmcnab]

your nothing but a racist aswel as a gay prat spurm,listern to yourselves, its institutional, your the same as ron atkinson,amongst your clan you speak of people as they are or have the same oportunity as you, for your info mate, in the usa blacks were allowed to participate in major league sports, cos they didnt want the ruling white people to feel intimidated by there higher levels of skill and agility, the globe trotters wer banned from playin in nba,but when they went on tour they played practice games against nba champion teams and regularly thrashed them, same in britain,

[neilmcnab]

england would never have aq black striker leading them, thats why they never win anything, look at france racist country but they give black sports men and woman a chance and vwalor, they have won football tournaments and many other sporting events they eclipse the british, is there a pattern emerging somwhere....

[jrio]

Rufus, if you think about how many black professionals there are compared to 30 years ago, it's not because the black population has multiplied by 1,000 per cent or because that's been the increase in black males playing football. It's because the football industry became more receptive to giving them opportunities as more and more sides featured black players who were outstanding or matched white players.

Shakey18, plenty of ex-players apply but eventually give up when they frequently don't even get the courtesy of a reply. Bosses often employ people in junior positions but don't consider them for senior roles due to prejudices they have about race, gender, class etc. Think how unrepresentative boardrooms are of our society. Is it because only white, male, often middle-class, married individuals have the capabilities required? American society is very polarised. Black people are often over-represented in areas like sport and entertainment but feature little elsewhere.

Chairmen spend money on players managers want. To some extent players are still regarded as possessions of the club. Chairmen don't have to associate closely with the players and if they see them at all it's probably only on a match day. There is a direct relationship between chairman and manager just as the manager has the same with players. Many chairmen still have the view that whilst black players can deliver on the pitch, they don't have the qualities to manage a team. It's not so long ago Ron Noades was claiming that black guys could only play in flair positions like winger because they couldn't tackle strongly and lacked discipline. It's easy to think we live in a totally meritocratic society where the cream will always rise to the top. Whilst we've made large steps in the past few decades that's far from being true. If you don't think it's unusual that the number of black managers is microscopic compared to black players then presumably you attribute that to black players not having the discipline, drive or determination required to enter management. But if the door's been locked it can't simply be pushed open.

[DiamondGeezer]

Rufus, if you think about how many black professionals there are compared to 30 years ago, it's not because the black population has multiplied by 1,000 per cent or because that's been the increase in black males playing football. It's because the football industry became more receptive to giving them opportunities as more and more sides featured black players who were outstanding or matched white players.

Shakey18, plenty of ex-players apply but eventually give up when they frequently don't even get the courtesy of a reply. Bosses often employ people in junior positions but don't consider them for senior roles due to prejudices they have about race, gender, class etc. Think how unrepresentative boardrooms are of our society. Is it because only white, male, often middle-class, married individuals have the capabilities required? American society is very polarised. Black people are often over-represented in areas like sport and entertainment but feature little elsewhere.

Chairmen spend money on players managers want. To some extent players are still regarded as possessions of the club. Chairmen don't have to associate closely with the players and if they see them at all it's probably only on a match day. There is a direct relationship between chairman and manager just as the manager has the same with players. Many chairmen still have the view that whilst black players can deliver on the pitch, they don't have the qualities to manage a team. It's not so long ago Ron Noades was claiming that black guys could only play in flair positions like winger because they couldn't tackle strongly and lacked discipline. It's easy to think we live in a totally meritocratic society where the cream will always rise to the top. Whilst we've made large steps in the past few decades that's far from being true. If you don't think it's unusual that the number of black managers is microscopic compared to black players then presumably you attribute that to black players not having the discipline, drive or determination required to enter management. But if the door's been locked it can't simply be pushed open.

I think racism will never die but to say people are being prejudged due to there colour by chairman is a bit out of order i think. but if u look at most of the chairman they are old and they are not so accustomed to multi-cultiral people as the younger generations are.

also another question am i or we racist because i want an english manager for the english team?

it all comes down to the individual or group decision of the chairman or boards who they appoint and only they know how they do it.

if in a few years theres a black chairman in charge of a premiership team and he only employs black managers will we then be claiming he is racist or that he is giving the chance to our black community?

its a vicious cycle and will never die because people are racist but not just white to black
black to white
black to black
jamaicans to nigerians

the list goes on and on

if some of the chairman appoint there managers in a prejudgemental way and its proven then yes that is bad.

but everyone has the right to do there job there way and thats there choice.

to claim someone or people or a profesion is racist especially in this century i think is bad unless there is proof

[RuFuS]

Many chairmen still have the view that whilst black players can deliver on the pitch, they don't have the qualities to manage a team.
Surley that's true in any job regardless of race or creed

If you don't think it's unusual that the number of black managers is microscopic compared to black players then presumably you attribute that to black players not having the discipline, drive or determination required to enter management.

There can only be 92 managers which in it's self is microscopic in comparison with the amount of players say over a 5 year period. So again regardless of race or creed you'd have to be disiplined and have the drive to want to do the job. Especially after earning £??k per week for just running around for 90 mins a week.

But if the door's been locked it can't simply be pushed open.

If i go to the pub and there are no black people in there,does that mean that they're are not welcome or that they choose not to go in ?

[Spur]

your nothing but a racist aswel as a gay prat spurm,listern to yourselves, its institutional, your the same as ron atkinson,amongst your clan you speak of people as they are or have the same oportunity as you, for your info mate, in the usa blacks were allowed to participate in major league sports, cos they didnt want the ruling white people to feel intimidated by there higher levels of skill and agility, the globe trotters wer banned from playin in nba,but when they went on tour they played practice games against nba champion teams and regularly thrashed them, same in britain,

It's institutional? Ok so your saying that even Catholic schools and club's community schemes are racist because in all my experience working with and within these schemes and schools I have only ever seen one or two black people working...these are schemes run by religious people and women and black people as well...doesn't make sense mate.

In my experience it has only ever been best person for the job. I think racism in sport is blown out of all proportion. 20, 30 even 10 years ago it may have held weight, but nowadays no I don't think so. As it just so happens the best coach in Europe is black, if there were so many 'closed doors' that wouldn't be the case.

You can call me a racist all you want. At the end of the day i'm right. And i'm not being racist within being right. As it goes I had this conversation with two black friends of mine tonight and they agreed with everything I said. And I never got called a racist. Funny that.

[jrio]

Rufus, there are plenty of testimonies from black ex-players regarding repeatedly making applications for jobs that weren't even acknowledged. After a while they seemed to understand they were getting a message regarding their desirability for jobs that was not based on their footballing experience. Few current Prem players may want to endure the rigours of management but plenty did in the past. Ex-players now have more options than going into management or running a pub but when black players have roughly been 30% of footballing pros over the past decade or so, it seems very anomalous that you can count the number of black managers across the same period on one hand.

As for your local pub argument, well, that's been used since mass immigration began to this country. The answer is it could be either but you can make it clear certain minorities are unwelcome and then claim it's their own choice.

[MiloMinderbinder]

IMO this is complete bollox. There are many proven (whether bad or good is up to you) manager out there without jobs, if you were a chairman would you give one of these experienced managers a job or an unproven manager of any race or creed. I know it's not policitically expedient but I am sick of everyone jumping on the "it's racilist" bandwagon, **** there's no Muslim or Jewish managers either, it must be discrimination. In fact I note that of a prison popn of approx 80,000 only 137 inmates are Jewish - discrimination in action.

You see when we don't like the status quo we tend to try and throw mud at the situation to see if it'll stick, and it's noticeable that the comments have come from Paul Ince, cos he's such a paragon of virtue, he's never misbehaved and come across as a particuarly arrogant and conceited individual has he?! Would you employ him in any capacity at all?

It seems to me that there is a dangerous trend in our society to blame "your" ills on someone or something else rather than either acknowledging that perhaps "you" can be held at least partially responsible and do something about it.

[RuFuS]

I am curious as to the lack of 'British' Asian players making their way in football.

[Spur]

I am curious as to the lack of 'British' Asian players making their way in football.

Have you ever seen a British Asian play football up the park?

I live in a very multi-racial area and my answer is no.

[RuFuS]

Have you ever seen a British Asian play football up the park?

To be honest it's been a long time since i've watched local park football. Too busy on sats and can't be arsed on a Sunday morn and even longer since i've played it. :o

[jrio]

... there's no Muslim or Jewish managers either, it must be discrimination. In fact I note that of a prison popn of approx 80,000 only 137 inmates are Jewish - discrimination in action..
How many Muslim or Jewish football pros are there? How good are you at spotting Jews by sight(apart from the orthodox)? Ever saw a black person and didn't realise they were black?



..and it's noticeable that the comments have come from Paul Ince, cos he's such a paragon of virtue, he's never misbehaved and come across as a particuarly arrogant and conceited individual has he?! Would you employ him in any capacity at all?
Unlike Roy Keane who just walked into a job with a major club.

It seems to me that there is a dangerous trend in our society to blame "your" ills on someone or something else rather than either acknowledging that perhaps "you" can be held at least partially responsible and do something about it.
Whilst there are many instances of this, more pertinently in America where frivolous lawsuits seem to be a daily occurrence, it's easy to level that accusation when you're part of the comfortable majority that has no fear of such things.

[RuFuS]

Unlike Roy Keane who just walked into a job with a major club.

That's cause his mate had bought himself the club.

[Spur]

And Roy Keane had basically been groomed by arguably the best manager the world has ever seen. Whereas Paul Ince had spent his final days playing under some bloke called Glenn Hoddle (",)

Which one would you give a job too? I'm gonna say the white man. But not because he's white.

[jrio]

That's cause his mate had bought himself the club.

Quinn's far from being his mate. He noticeably sided with McCarthy in the row with Keane in 2002. I don't think Keane has any mates.

[MiloMinderbinder]

How many Muslim or Jewish football pros are there? How good are you at spotting Jews by sight(apart from the orthodox)? Ever saw a black person and didn't realise they were black?

Unlike Roy Keane who just walked into a job with a major club.

Whilst there are many instances of this, more pertinently in America where frivolous lawsuits seem to be a daily occurrence, it's easy to level that accusation when you're part of the comfortable majority that has no fear of such things.

That’s not the point and you know it, the point is that they don’t want to involve themselves and therefore any cries of prejudice are only perpetuated by do-gooder institutions with no real understanding of the semantics and fighting a corner that doesn’t need or want to be fought for.

How would you know what situation I am in?! The fact remains that society is far to interested in a false equality, why are there not more black managers? Answer; because a) they’re not interested enough, b) those that there are interested aren’t good enough. Nothing to do with racism whatsoever, to suggest that the game is institutionally racist is ridiculous, what about cricket, there’s no black player playing for England, racism, circumstances or personal choice?! I think we all know the answer, stop looking for problems where none exist. As I maintain it’s far easier to blame “the system” for “keeping the little man down” rather than the “little man” rectifying what he is doing or not doing in order to further himself.

[jrio]

KK, you could apply your logic of "no black players in the England cricket team" to any situation and then conclude there are no problems of discrimination anywhere, and it's because either minorities aren't interested or are not good enough. The difference in this situation is that there are testimonies from ex-players citing numerous applications that weren't even acknowledged. That indicates there is the desire among a number of black ex-players to enter management. It's not a false equality that is being highlighted because no one is suggesting that the number of black managers should roughly be proportional to the numbers of black players, but it's striking that the former are almost non-existent. It's not institutional racism but there is certainly a high level of prejudice amongst chairmen. If you think they always consider only the best man for the job as the single criterion then I guess you must also think they hate to see fans subjected to extortionate ticket prices and merchandising.:)

[Spur]

Seeing as we're talking about the coaching industry as a whole I think you can actually look past the fact there are no black managers. You can look at the fact there are few black coaches at all. Coaches are chosen by the manager. So right now your saying that aside from the 92 racist league chairmen your also saying that they have 92 racist managers for not employing black coaches. Do you really believe that?

No that's not something believe either, but the point speaks volumes. They aren't there to be employed. And those that are aren't good enough.

[MiloMinderbinder]

KK, you could apply your logic of "no black players in the England cricket team" to any situation and then conclude there are no problems of discrimination anywhere, and it's because either minorities aren't interested or are not good enough. The difference in this situation is that there are testimonies from ex-players citing numerous applications that weren't even acknowledged. That indicates there is the desire among a number of black ex-players to enter management. It's not a false equality that is being highlighted because no one is suggesting that the number of black managers should roughly be proportional to the numbers of black players, but it's striking that the former are almost non-existent. It's not institutional racism but there is certainly a high level of prejudice amongst chairmen. If you think they always consider only the best man for the job as the single criterion then I guess you must also think they hate to see fans subjected to extortionate ticket prices and merchandising.:)

Let's use this analogy; you apply for a job, you have the basic qualifications but no experiene, the other candidate has the same qualifications as you but are also blessed with the relevant experience. Who do you expect would get the job? You could argue that there is a vicious cycle occuring but prejudice, certainly not. Chairman and the BoD have a duty to look after the best interests of the entity they are charged with looking after, that means getting the right man for the job, not the white man for the job. This is merely blame culture taken to the nth degree by those who are incapable or unwilling to acknoweldge their own shortcomings.

[Spur]

Let's use this analogy; you apply for a job, you have the basic qualifications but no experiene, the other candidate has the same qualifications as you but are also blessed with the relevant experience. Who do you expect would get the job? You could argue that there is a vicious cycle occuring but prejudice, certainly not. Chairman and the BoD have a duty to look after the best interests of the entity they are charged with looking after, that means getting the right man for the job, not the white man for the job. This is merely blame culture taken to the nth degree by those who are incapable or unwilling to acknoweldge their own shortcomings.

Well said that man.

[MaccYid]

Just to say, i live in Macclesfield and Paul Ince has done an absolutely unbelievable job with the club. They were 17 points adrift at the bottom when he took over and they are already out of the relegation places!!

Never really liked or disliked Incey as a player but he has changed my impression of him. He will be a top class manager!! and good for him that he choose to do it at the very lowest level to prove himself!

[jrio]

Let's use this analogy; you apply for a job, you have the basic qualifications but no experiene, the other candidate has the same qualifications as you but are also blessed with the relevant experience. Who do you expect would get the job? You could argue that there is a vicious cycle occuring but prejudice, certainly not. Chairman and the BoD have a duty to look after the best interests of the entity they are charged with looking after, that means getting the right man for the job, not the white man for the job. This is merely blame culture taken to the nth degree by those who are incapable or unwilling to acknoweldge their own shortcomings.

Yeah, like Roy Keane with his vast managerial experience and qualifications!

Funny how so many of the "right" men are white men. I don't see how candidates can even show they're the right man if they don't even have applications acknowledged. Your view of chairmen and boards seems to have little connection with reality.

[jrio]

Just to say, i live in Macclesfield and Paul Ince has done an absolutely unbelievable job with the club. They were 17 points adrift at the bottom when he took over and they are already out of the relegation places!!

Never really liked or disliked Incey as a player but he has changed my impression of him. He will be a top class manager!! and good for him that he choose to do it at the very lowest level to prove himself!

As he left Wolves in a sulk because he wasn't considered for the job there, I don't think it was entirely his preferred choice.

[jrio]

Seeing as we're talking about the coaching industry as a whole I think you can actually look past the fact there are no black managers. You can look at the fact there are few black coaches at all. Coaches are chosen by the manager. So right now your saying that aside from the 92 racist league chairmen your also saying that they have 92 racist managers for not employing black coaches. Do you really believe that?

No that's not something believe either, but the point speaks volumes. They aren't there to be employed. And those that are aren't good enough.
As several clubs have employed black coaches that obviously isn't what I'm saying. Equally I'm not saying it's blanket racism but just as football has historically been very conservative in its outlook, so this reflects in the kind of decisions that chairmen make. Only in the past 10 years has progressive thinking from sports science had a significant impact on the way coaches prepare their players and encourage them to look after their bodies. Not so long ago you'd have dismissed such thinking as insubstantial and not have been concerned with the levels of smoking, drinking and junk food consumption.

[MaccYid]

As he left Wolves in a sulk because he wasn't considered for the job there, I don't think it was entirely his preferred choice.

true, but he could have easily held out for another championship club

[Spur]

Yeah, like Roy Keane with his vast managerial experience and qualifications!

Funny how so many of the "right" men are white men. I don't see how candidates can even show they're the right man if they don't even have applications acknowledged. Your view of chairmen and boards seems to have little connection with reality.

If 99% of the applicants are white then more than likely a white person will take charge.

And you can put forward black people don't bother applying because they know they won't get the job all you like, what kind of message does that send out? It will just limit them even more as they will carry on not applying. It sends out that people should just give up because of their colour. What a great way to get over it.

Like I say, you can view the amount of coaches - thats youth team, community schemes, academy staff as well as 1st team coaches - that there are and so few are black. They listed something like 7 in that article. Your not only calling chairmen and their boards racist, your calling managers of 1st teams, managers of the community schemes, managers of the academy racist as well. It goes against common sense. I'm quite sure these are people that would want the best person for the job, colour has nothing to do with it.

Closed shop? More like an open shop but no-one black wants to enter.

In several years time black people within the game will be getting jobs. Ince is already being considered for jobs higher up the food chain, and i'm quite sure people like Dion Dublin, Andy Cole, Dwight Yorke will all move into management. If they employ black staff will white people call them racist? Of course not. The blame game is easy to play if your black. It's the easiest thing to say and becomes a ludicrous thing when asked to back it up.

[MiloMinderbinder]

Yeah, like Roy Keane with his vast managerial experience and qualifications!

Funny how so many of the "right" men are white men. I don't see how candidates can even show they're the right man if they don't even have applications acknowledged. Your view of chairmen and boards seems to have little connection with reality.

OK let's leave one appointment out of it - I don't know who applied for the Mackem job and neither do you but I would say that I'd rather have Keane than Ince in charge of my club.

The fact remains that there is no proof of racism other than a handful of black former pro bemonaing their inability to get the job they want - hell I want to be chairman of ICI, they won't entertain the idea are they anti-semites?

My view of chariman etc is fact not opinion. It's called a fiduciary duty. Which is why we get ripped off, if they can see a price inelastic product they would be remiss not to take advantage of it.

[MiloMinderbinder]

If they employ black staff will white people call them racist?

Hey, didn't you know that racism is a one way street?;)

[jrio]

My view of chariman etc is fact not opinion. It's called a fiduciary duty. Which is why we get ripped off, if they can see a price inelastic product they would be remiss not to take advantage of it.
Your view of chairmen isn't a fact, only your statement of their duty is. It's just fantastically naive to think that they conduct themselves in a manner fully compatible with that statement.

Is racism a one-way street? There has to be an element of power or else it is. Pretty much why calling white people names has little effect compared to monkey chants, throwing bananas and shouting n*****. It's also why you won't be oppressed by women being sexist towards you. Cue anecdotes from you and Spur about how you've been objectified by women. :rolleyes:

[MiloMinderbinder]

Your view of chairmen isn't a fact, only your statement of their duty is. It's just fantastically naive to think that they conduct themselves in a manner fully compatible with that statement.

Is racism a one-way street? There has to be an element of power or else it is. Pretty much why calling white people names has little effect compared to monkey chants, throwing bananas and shouting n*****. It's also why you won't be oppressed by women being sexist towards you. Cue anecdotes from you and Spur about how you've been objectified by women. :rolleyes:

This is the sort of view perpetrated by the Nation of Islam that says only white on black is racism. Quite frankly the most racist people I have ever met are blacks and Asians and yet they can't or won't see it, go to Africa and see for yourself proper racism in action where whites and Asians are treated as 2nd or 3rd class, denied the rights of the indigenous population and are then told they are lucky to have a place in the country.

All it means is you've been taken in by the propaganda, the only racism (other than moron fans) I have seen in football is positive discrimination in favour of a certain "top flight" referee.

As far as i can see, the only person who could be accused of racism is the guy who calls it at every opportunity (I mean Ince and his like, not you). This means he wants to see someone as "racist" and by doing so is in fact prejudice in his own views.

As for the directors etc, this is a legal requirment it's not an option, if you were to have any doubts as to the honour of one of the protagonsits you would be well in your rights to attempt to call an EGM and move for a vote of no confidence in the board. The board at the Scum for example take their fiduciary duties very seriously indeed, to the extent that they take advice on every decsion made, especially that of a financial nature.

[jrio]

T Quite frankly the most racist people I have ever met are blacks and Asians and yet they can't or won't see it, go to Africa and see for yourself proper racism in action where whites and Asians are treated as 2nd or 3rd class, denied the rights of the indigenous population and are then told they are lucky to have a place in the country.
Which actually fulfills my requirement of there being an element of power in certain countries.


As for the directors etc, this is a legal requirment it's not an option, if you were to have any doubts as to the honour of one of the protagonsits you would be well in your rights to attempt to call an EGM and move for a vote of no confidence in the board. The board at the Scum for example take their fiduciary duties very seriously indeed, to the extent that they take advice on every decsion made, especially that of a financial nature.
Chairmen and director have free will to interpret doing their duty as opposed to actively breaking it. I'm sure few of the individuals consciously think they're being prejudicial, it's a result of their background and experiences. I doubt their views on the roles of women in society would be particularly enlightening either. You're also talking about a group of people who were quite content to see fans treated like cattle and denied decent amenities and consideration. I'm totally against all-seater stadiums but the only reason clubs cottoned on to it so quickly was the subsidies they got for modernising essentially pre-war stadia and that it increased revenue per fan(customer).

[MiloMinderbinder]

Which actually fulfills my requirement of there being an element of power in certain countries.

Yes, fine but there has to be intent as well, which in the vast majority of instances over here, is not present, actions and results are open to individual interpretations what ever they maybe.

Chairmen and director have free will to interpret doing their duty as opposed to actively breaking it. I'm sure few of the individuals consciously think they're being prejudicial, it's a result of their background and experiences. I doubt their views on the roles of women in society would be particularly enlightening either. You're also talking about a group of people who were quite content to see fans treated like cattle and denied decent amenities and consideration. I'm totally against all-seater stadiums but the only reason clubs cottoned on to it so quickly was the subsidies they got for modernising essentially pre-war stadia and that it increased revenue per fan(customer).

Err, no a BoD MUST adheer to fiduciary duties or they go to jail, trust me, it's closely related to what I do for a living. The board at Spurs are actually pretty much all fans, and also gentlemen as well.

I think all seater stadia may have had something to do with a) Hillsborough, b) the thuggish behaviour of fans in the 70's and 80's c) Valley Parade rather than a villianous plot by the clubs - I seem to keep thinking of the name "Taylor".

[jrio]

Err, no a BoD MUST adheer to fiduciary duties or they go to jail, trust me, it's closely related to what I do for a living. The board at Spurs are actually pretty much all fans, and also gentlemen as well.

I think all seater stadia may have had something to do with a) Hillsborough, b) the thuggish behaviour of fans in the 70's and 80's c) Valley Parade rather than a villianous plot by the clubs - I seem to keep thinking of the name "Taylor".
Since this isn't a verbal conversation there is no excuse for typing "err" as though you've had to pause whilst thinking. Maybe you're not very good at what you do for a living. You've little scope to patronise me. I'm hardly likely to trust somebody I only know through a pseudonym on an internet forum.

All seater stadia are a result of those events you cite. You seem to have missed the point that if the owners had shown some consideration for the safety and comfort of their "customers" ie the same considerations they would expect it is hardly likely there would have been such events. This is the same attitude that treats others outside a social circle as being unworthy of the same standards of respect and treatment. Scholar was also a fan and look at how he crippled the club. He then went on to do the same at Forest, so hardly a recommendation. I saw fans suckered in by his promises but there are fans and fans. Having one thing in common doesn't make you the same. Methinks you're too wedded to personal contacts you have at this level to be very objective.

You've no idea about the intent that lies behind decisions made in boardrooms up and down the country. You just look at a legal requirement, reason direct evidence of contravening it leads to jail and insist it can't happen. Very blinkered.

[Spur]

All it means is you've been taken in by the propaganda, the only racism (other than moron fans) I have seen in football is positive discrimination in favour of a certain "top flight" referee.

I remember going Millwall as a kid and Uriah was quite frequent. Even then he was out of his depth. How on earth he got fast-tracked into the Premiership is ridiculous.

As far as i can see, the only person who could be accused of racism is the guy who calls it at every opportunity (I mean Ince and his like, not you). This means he wants to see someone as "racist" and by doing so is in fact prejudice in his own views.

Absolutely spot on.

[RuFuS]

I remember going Millwall as a kid and Uriah was quite frequent. Even then he was out of his depth. How on earth he got fast-tracked into the Premiership is ridiculous.

I like uriah he trys to let the game flow. It's not obvious when your at a live game but watch a 'nuetral' live game on the telly and you can see what he's trying to do. He don't get it right all the time, none of them do but he's a damn sight better than the whistle happy crew, stopping the game every thirty seconds.

[RuFuS]

How much racsim is there in english football with reference to the crowd ?

I've never seen or heard it at spurs and i've been going since 73 and been a ST since 94. Even the stick that Solscum gets is not racist.

[Spur]

How much racsim is there in english football with reference to the crowd ?

I've never seen or heard it at spurs and i've been going since 73 and been a ST since 94. Even the stick that Solscum gets is not racist.

I've never ever heard anything, and that includes those games I went to watch Millwall with one of me mates.

[Welsh Spur]

This is all a load of tosh. I really doubt that the fact there are few black managers has any thing to do with their colour. If they were decent enough they'd get the job is how I'd see it. Like someone said, if you aren't doing the courses or getting the qualifications how do you expect to get the job?

This issue has been blown way out of proportion. Funny none of the people mentioned in the article who are black (Ince, Hughton, Curle, etc) have said nothing about it. They are probably embarassed. I really doubt that the whole comparison between Keane and Ince has any substance, in any case look at Keane's progress so far, he has got a completely shite Sunderland side to 4th and in line for a prem return, while Ince's managerial skills see Macclesfield languishing in 20th League two, or 88th in England.

[jrio]

I've never ever heard anything, and that includes those games I went to watch Millwall with one of me mates.

I was in the stand to the right of the Spurs fans for the pre-season friendly at Millwall 3 seasons ago. A few rows in front and to the right of me a couple of fans stood up in the second half and started imitating monkeys, and chanted monkey noises at a black Spurs fan whilst gesticulating at him, and challenging him to a fight outside(Millwall were 2 down). Their behaviour was then copied by some fans around them and by a group of women with a very young boy near them. Most fans there seemed to think it was very funny. It was one of the most sickening things I've seen in a football ground.

I've never heard racist chanting at Spurs either. However, in the 80s I used to go to games with a group of 10-20 other fans who mostly held racist views along the lines of blacks are thick, lazy, look like monkeys and should be sent back to Africa.

[jrio]

Just to say, i live in Macclesfield and Paul Ince has done an absolutely unbelievable job with the club. They were 17 points adrift at the bottom when he took over and they are already out of the relegation places!!


Reproduced for WS's benefit.

[Spur]

Millwall fans make me laugh. They are so stupid it's unreal. Why make out your club is racist but then go and watch your team and pay the people you hate's wages because their playing in your team and wearing your colours? Doesn't make sense.

A few years back a Millwall fan got a cheap shot in on me when I said I weren't racist. Their just thick ****s.

[Shuggie13]

This debate seems to have sidetracked a little and reading through the posts one thing seems to have been neglected 'oppurtunity and encouragement'.

The original report seems to indicate there has been a lack of oppurtunity for black coaches or managers. This lack of oppurtunity, whether you like it or not, is down to an underlying prejudice, which can be determined as indirect racism.

To say that it is down to black ex-footballers just not being the right candidates or that they are not interested is ludicrous. If there is an inherent system where there is no oppurtunity it is impossible to expect Black ex-players to feel encouraged. It is like saying that women were not in high-level Management jobs 15 years ago because they were just not the right candidates or were not interested in taking them. You do not need a sociology degree to see that is down to sexism.

20 years ago there were less black players in the the Leagues, now there is a far higher percentage (we could actually nearly field a whole first team of black or black or mixed-race players).

Moving foward, looking at the NFL is a good example. This seasons Superbowl featured both sides in the competitions history with Black coaches. Is this down to Black coaches not previously wanting to coach and being the right candidates or down to the previous lack of encouragement or oppurtunity? I'll give you a clue, there was still segregation in some states in the USA in the middle of the last century.

[MiloMinderbinder]

Since this isn't a verbal conversation there is no excuse for typing "err" as though you've had to pause whilst thinking. Maybe you're not very good at what you do for a living. You've little scope to patronise me. I'm hardly likely to trust somebody I only know through a pseudonym on an internet forum.

All seater stadia are a result of those events you cite. You seem to have missed the point that if the owners had shown some consideration for the safety and comfort of their "customers" ie the same considerations they would expect it is hardly likely there would have been such events. This is the same attitude that treats others outside a social circle as being unworthy of the same standards of respect and treatment. Scholar was also a fan and look at how he crippled the club. He then went on to do the same at Forest, so hardly a recommendation. I saw fans suckered in by his promises but there are fans and fans. Having one thing in common doesn't make you the same. Methinks you're too wedded to personal contacts you have at this level to be very objective.

You've no idea about the intent that lies behind decisions made in boardrooms up and down the country. You just look at a legal requirement, reason direct evidence of contravening it leads to jail and insist it can't happen. Very blinkered.

Do you know you're right, racsim is endemic in football be it the fans, players, BoD or authorities. And the all seater stadia was the result of an attempt to fleece the fans out of much money as possible.:rolleyes:

[Spur]

To say that it is down to black ex-footballers just not being the right candidates or that they are not interested is ludicrous. If there is an inherent system where there is no oppurtunity it is impossible to expect Black ex-players to feel encouraged.

Well clearly they are not interested - or not encouraged therefore not interested anyway - because they aren't even taking the courses. Is it too hard for some to realise you won't get the job if your not good enough. Qualifications are a way of provng you are.

You can compare Ince to Keane all you like. Fact is, like Gary Neville and Paul Scholes (both white people who will take big jobs straight away for the same reason Keane did), Keane has actually been in management for a very long time. Ignore the fact they are all very well respected in the game. Very well respected - ignore that. Ignore the fact they have played under the greatest manager alive. I know for a fact - because the Club helps them do it - that these players have their own teams lower down the league ladder, to the point where they aren't even in the league.

Sir Les said himself there are no black people on the courses. Well is it too hard to see that that means black people don't have the right qualifications to even be considered? I don't see how it is.

I'll give you a clue, there was still segregation in some states in the USA in the middle of the last century.

And there will always be racism in those states. Always. But we're talking about sport here. Where there is one team that don't want someone theres another 10 that do. NFL that is more the case than football.

So let's see. There have been 10 coaches who were black and three or four where successful. I'm more than willing to put money on it that that's a better ratio of successful coaches out of ten than it would be for white managers.

The fact that white managers get more chances? I'm going to go ahead and say that's just because these are people who will stay within the game and take their chances when they come up (Glenn Roeder, Christian Gross, Rafa Benitez). There are examples of black coaches giving up and moving out of the game in that article.

It's rather strange, i'm sitting here thinking about Africa. How many African countries have white managers?

[jrio]

Well clearly they are not interested - or not encouraged therefore not interested anyway - because they aren't even taking the courses. Is it too hard for some to realise you won't get the job if your not good enough. Qualifications are a way of provng you are.

You can compare Ince to Keane all you like. Fact is, like Gary Neville and Paul Scholes (both white people who will take big jobs straight away for the same reason Keane did), Keane has actually been in management for a very long time. Ignore the fact they are all very well respected in the game. Very well respected - ignore that. Ignore the fact they have played under the greatest manager alive. I know for a fact - because the Club helps them do it - that these players have their own teams lower down the league ladder, to the point where they aren't even in the league.

Sir Les said himself there are no black people on the courses. Well is it too hard to see that that means black people don't have the right qualifications to even be considered? I don't see how it is.
What qualifications does the "greatest living manager"(you've gone a bit overboard on that one, very Prem-centric) have? The fact is the courses won't demonstrate that you have the capacity to be a good manager. They'll demonstrate understanding of the issues but do little to stop managers "losing the dressing-room" or even help them find it.

How has Keane been in management? Assuming this is a captaincy reference, Ince must have been captain of various sides at least as long as he has. This is up there with your "3 greatest teams won nothing" claim, which turned out to omit the World Cup and FA Cup!

Why are there no black players on the courses? Because they're aware big name players can walk into jobs whilst potential black candidates will be right at the back of a very long queue and the qualifications won't make a blind bit of difference.

Maybe you saw the report yesterday on how women with children are more discriminated against than any other group. It's relevance here is that it shows, no matter the reasons for it, that it's facile to come out with platitudes like "if you're good enough you'll get the job". It's a strange world you live in where only the best people for jobs get them. Anecdotally, we all know that isn't true and that a culture of "jobs for the boys" is still prevalent in many sectors.

It's rather strange, i'm sitting here thinking about Africa. How many African countries have white managers?
That is strange as how many have never had white managers would be a more pertinent question. Certainly the sides that qualified for the WC over the past 2 decades usually had white managers.

[Spur]

That is strange as how many have never had white managers would be a more pertinent question. Certainly the sides that qualified for the WC over the past 2 decades usually had white managers.

Indeed it would.

And so would the next question not be, are black people being kept out of these jobs because they are black?

[jrio]

Indeed it would.

And so would the next question not be, are black people being kept out of these jobs because they are black?
And there was me thinking you were going to claim whites were suffering racial discrimination! Still, I bet you have no idea how many African countries have black managers.

More instructive is this from Martin Jaques in the Guardian 2 years ago:

A quarter of the players in the Premiership may be black or mixed-race, yet not a single manager. In the boardroom (just one non-white), among management staff (2% non-white), administrative staff (4%), coaching staff (6%), and in the stands, Premiership football is much whiter than the population at large (ethnic minorities comprise 9%). There is only one, albeit entirely predictable, exception: a fifth of the "other staff" - catering, turnstiles, cleaning, et al - are non-white. Even worse, every single member of the FA board, comprising 14 people, is white and, likewise, every single one of its 92-member council

There is a not so subtle racial stereotyping involved in all this. Black people can perform, can play, but they can't administer or run things: this is the gift of the white man

[Spur]

And there was me thinking you were going to claim whites were suffering racial discrimination! Still, I bet you have no idea how many African countries have black managers.

Of course not. Racial discrimination only goes one way. It's impossible to prove that a black man hates a white man.

The stats that were shown are indeed quite striking. I don't really know what to say. Anything I do say, because it would be so controversial yet realistic, would just lead to me being called racist and naive. So i'm not going to bother.

I'm out of this one.