Match Thread: Tottenham Hotspur vs Manchester United

[Neil_Vaughan]

Talk about the game in here before, during and after.

[Ginola's Son]

Ok, to go out on a limb, which I rarely do.

I'll say 2-1 Spurs, with them leading for much of the game.

And I think Mido will get em both.

[Spur]

I'm going to be positive (as I was for the Arsenal game) 4-0.

Ok, maybe not.

It'll be a good game of footy.

[highlander]

this is a bonus game, if we get anything out of this game ill be pleased but i cant see it happening. i think that is a good point about Mido; he did look really up for it when he came on against the goons, hopefully he can carry that atitude into this game and get back the form of last season

[olly27]

slight problem with mido...i think he may be suspended...not 100% sure mind you...SSN have reported berbie might make the game...and lennon is definitely fit :)

[spurs61]

Ok, to go out on a limb, which I rarely do.

I'll say 2-1 Spurs, with them leading for much of the game.

And I think Mido will get em both.

Been drinking this afternoon GS?

[jrio]

slight problem with mido...i think he may be suspended...not 100% sure mind you...SSN have reported berbie might make the game...and lennon is definitely fit :)

You're right he is suspended. I'm expecting Berb to be fit as his groin was supposedly 10 days to heal. Still, how about another prediction from GS?:D

[Ginola's Son]

Been drinking this afternoon GS?

I'm drunk with love for the club

Lets ****ing show some faith

[suBerb]

I think that Berba will play. Heard an interview with Villa's Petrov who indicated that his friend will be ready to face Manure. So, I think that we are going to win. The logic of this season is to alternate bad defeats with famous victories. It's time for another good evening for Spurs fans.

[MiloMinderbinder]

I think that Berba will play. Heard an interview with Villa's Petrov who indicated that his friend will be ready to face Manure. So, I think that we are going to win. The logic of this season is to alternate bad defeats with famous victories. It's time for another good evening for Spurs fans.

I must have missed those famous victories (Chel$ki apart) whilst hiding my head in the sand. Oh yeah Spurs 1 Southend 0 of course.

[suBerb]

I must have missed those famous victories (Chel$ki apart) whilst hiding my head in the sand. Oh yeah Spurs 1 Southend 0 of course.

Well, our victories in Europe were good though not famous. The famous victories are yet to come. :cool:

[MiloMinderbinder]

Well, our victories in Europe were good though not famous. The famous victories are yet to come. :cool:

oh yeah sorry, the victories over Leverkuesen and Besiktas were indeed very good and in 10 years will be fondly remembered it's just that it feels so long ago at the moment.

I stand corrected.

[olly27]

well the official site has confirmed that berby and lennon are both back for sunday...:) :)

[MiloMinderbinder]

well the official site has confirmed that berby and lennon are both back for sunday...:) :)

no ****ing excuses for this one then Mr Jol.

[spurs61]

I'm drunk with love for the club

Lets ****ing show some faith

I'll be showing my undying and unswerving support, I'm not too sure about faith though. Did you manage to get a ticket in the end? If I hear of any spare tickets this evening, do you want a pm? It could be as late as 12 O'Clock tommorrow morning?

[suBerb]

I have the feeling that this game is going to be special. :cool:

[MiloMinderbinder]

I'll be showing my undying and unswerving support, I'm not too sure about faith though. Did you manage to get a ticket in the end? If I hear of any spare tickets this evening, do you want a pm? It could be as late as 12 O'Clock tommorrow morning?

There's a 12 o' clock on a Saturday is there? news to me!

Don't do it GS it'll onlyend in tears, plus I know that spurs61 has a supply of rohypnol

[MiloMinderbinder]

I have the feeling that this game is going to be special. :cool:

oh I think it'll be special alright, specially painful for all us Spurs fans that is.

4-0 to them I reckon (seriously).

[Ginola's Son]

I'll be showing my undying and unswerving support, I'm not too sure about faith though.

Try it. Worked at chelsea, It'll work here. If West ****ing ham can do em, so can we

[suBerb]

oh I think it'll be special alright, specially painful for all us Spurs fans that is.

4-0 to them I reckon (seriously).

You are wrong mate, definately.

[Gino Ginelli]

As Dr Indiana Jones once said: "We. Are going. To DIE!"

Not that I'm negative or anything...

[peterc]

I reckon a draw 2-2. COYS.

[hastingsyid]

On the fence for this one defo a score draw me thinks

[choda]

I'd say God doesn't even know what will happen tomorrow. I predict goals. But heaven knows how spurs will play. I hope they play some good stuff, and for 90 minutes please.

[Danishspurs]

I've not had a lot of faith in the team lately but I don't know why I just think we'll get a good result today. With Lennon in sparkling form and Berba back I just think the team want revenche..

I predict a good match and we'll win 3-2 Berba, Defoe 2..

COYS!

[MarlowSpurs]

We could certainly do with a good result, looking at the league table now with us sitting at 11th. But I have the faith brothers and predict a 4-3 win.

[JJ]

We could certainly do with a good result, looking at the league table now with us sitting at 11th. But I have the faith brothers and predict a 4-3 win.

Well we have 2 games in hand over a bunch of the team above us. Problem is we actually have to win those games to move up to 6th/7th.

[SCIFIN17YID]

We will win 2 - 1 Goals for us by Berbatov, Defoe or Malbranque, oh p.s last on friday M.Dawson was at Rudolphs lol. and he was drunk as ****.

[MarlowSpurs]

We will win 2 - 1 Goals for us by Berbatov, Defoe or Malbranque, oh p.s last on friday M.Dawson was at Rudolphs lol. and he was drunk as ****.

Fair play to Dawson, I actually played better after a night on the town.

[\jackdaw]

I would just be happy with a clean sheet .. even if the score is 0-0.

[jrio]

Robinson, Chimbo, Gardner, Dawson, Lee, Lennon, Hudd, Zokora, Mal, Berb, Defoe(Cerny, Ekotto, Jenas, Ghaly, Keane)

No chance of a clean sheet with Lee and Gardner in there. Utd have their full side out.

[nuttyhotspurs]

i aint a religious guy but can we all put our hands together now and pray for a good result today, to spurn us on for the rest of the season

[Ioang]

i aint a religious guy but can we all put our hands together now and pray for a good result today, to spurn us on for the rest of the season

Thats quite possibly the most amazing thing I've ever seen in football - Steed Malbranque confusing Ronaldo with stepovers, hahaha!

[nuttyhotspurs]

well thats exactly what we didnt want. fought well for 45 mins then let them in at the end of the half.

expect the referee to give utd a high percentage of decisions in the 2nd half aswell now. he seems to have given us all the 50/50 decisions in the 1st half (wether we deserve them or not is irrelevent). just wait and see. everything will go in utds favour now as he tries to even it up wiv the "big boys". lets be honest he only gave the penalty because in the back of his mind he was thinking maybe i should have given the first.

lets just hope we bang a couple in now and not allow the ref to decide the outcome of the game. thats if he doesnt give us a dodgy penalty to "even" it up on penalties.

[original v.L.n.]

that cheating **** ronaldo.

He needs to be taken out and im not talking about a date :mad:

[nuttyhotspurs]

that cheating **** ronaldo.

He needs to be taken out and im not talking about a date :mad:

we need lennon and defoe to get into the game a bit more 2nd half. all ronaldo has done in the 1st half is a run into the box and they got a goal out of it

[shoot_ffs]

when is jol gonna sort out some sensible tactics for us. he really hasn't got a clue. we've got robinson playing longballs to defoe. malbranque running all over the place inside, allowing neville to push forward and support arguably their most dangerous player. lennon should be coming inside as evra won't come forward if he keeps getting the ball. it's so simple but jol gets it wrong, week in week out.
also maybe hudds and zokora should sort out who's the defensive mid and remind them it's a contact sport.

[MarlowSpurs]

Lee must be on drugs, he's actually playing ok

[peterc]

that cheating **** ronaldo.

He needs to be taken out and im not talking about a date :mad:

Just saw Neville pulling down Chimbonda, ****ing ref is a ****. CLEAR ****ING PENALTY, Ronaldo's definitely not a penalty.

[AssaTM]

Gotta disagree with you there shoot_ffs, Zokora is working pretty hard and I saw one or maybe two balls kicked from Robinson to Defoe, most of them have been going to Berbatov, and you seriously think Jol doesnt say "stay wide malbranque" or whatever? he's not a left winger, it's his natural instinct to drift inside, thats just how it works, Lennon and Defoe need to get themselves involved, Jol telling them that wont make them go do it, they have to make the effort

[MarlowSpurs]

that cheating **** ronaldo.

He needs to be taken out and im not talking about a date :mad:

I'd be happy for Gardener to make a late tackle and snap the ****s legs in as many places as possible. My record is braking someones leg in three places, not a pretty sight.

[nuttyhotspurs]

Just saw Neville pulling down Chimbonda, ****ing ref is a ****. CLEAR ****ING PENALTY, Ronaldo's definitely not a penalty.


it wasnt but larssons was. clumsy gardner. expect a spurs pen in the 2nd half

[nuttyhotspurs]

when is jol gonna sort out some sensible tactics for us. he really hasn't got a clue. we've got robinson playing longballs to defoe. malbranque running all over the place inside, allowing neville to push forward and support arguably their most dangerous player. lennon should be coming inside as evra won't come forward if he keeps getting the ball. it's so simple but jol gets it wrong, week in week out.
also maybe hudds and zokora should sort out who's the defensive mid and remind them it's a contact sport.

stop talking absolute dog shit u moron. do u seriously believe jol told the players at the start of the game to play long balls to defoe??? its the defence or midfield panicking when berby is unavailable for a pass. stop ****ing blaming jol for our players not delivering the goods.

malbranque is not a wide player, its his instinct to move infield. AGAIN i highly doubt jol tells him to come inside against utd when they have ronaldo on the right. get real mate

[Thfc4Life]

when is jol gonna sort out some sensible tactics for us. he really hasn't got a clue. we've got robinson playing longballs to defoe. malbranque running all over the place inside, allowing neville to push forward and support arguably their most dangerous player. lennon should be coming inside as evra won't come forward if he keeps getting the ball. it's so simple but jol gets it wrong, week in week out.
also maybe hudds and zokora should sort out who's the defensive mid and remind them it's a contact sport.

Agreed, did any of you guys notice that from the 25 min mark we changed to 451 with defoe left wing and Malbranque inside then change back at 40 mins, bit strange :rolleyes:

[canadaspur]

cnuttenberk is doing great,well apart from Scholes should be off,missed deffo pens at BOTH ends,gets conned by ronaldo dive,Larsson gets booked for nothing,minor shit like that:(

[nuttyhotspurs]

****in martin jol the complete and utter ****. get him sacked. why didnt he tell the centre halfs to pick up the runners on a corner. he should of sat them down and told them to pick up players like vidic on set pieces. get him out now.........

[Thfc4Life]

****in martin jol the complete and utter ****. get him sacked. why didnt he tell the centre halfs to pick up the runners on a corner. he should of sat them down and told them to pick up players like vidic on set pieces. get him out now.........

LOL bit of a knee jerk reaction there mate ;)

EDIT: 3-0 no your right

[nuttyhotspurs]

is anyone going to blame martin jol for that one aswell???

[nuttyhotspurs]

LOL bit of a knee jerk reaction there mate ;)

EDIT: 3-0 no your right

i was being sarcastic mate

[nuttyhotspurs]

theres another chance that u would expect a 10m+ player to put away. oh well its not our day AGAIN lol

[MACCSPURS]

why the hell are our so called fans booing Rooney as he is being subbed?

Then again, some of the games I've been to and the things some of our so called fans say I guess I should not be surprised.

Perhaps if they boo enough they think we might get a free goal :)

[nuttyhotspurs]

theres another chance that u would expect a 10m+ player to put away. oh well its not our day AGAIN lol

and another

[peterc]

Embarassing or what, now we know why the fans are getting used to booing. There is nothing to cheer about.

[nuttyhotspurs]

why the hell are our so called fans booing Rooney as he is being subbed?

Then again, some of the games I've been to and the things some of our so called fans say I guess I should not be surprised.

Perhaps if they boo enough they think we might get a free goal :)

prob because they have nothing to cheer about

[nuttyhotspurs]

and on another note. the fortress we had at home has been rebuilt out of glass

[original v.L.n.]

and on another note. the fortress we had at home has been rebuilt out of glass


yer, tottenham fans need a sense of humour. :) not much to laugh about on the pitch :(

[MACCSPURS]

Question: How do you make a poor result even worse?

Answer: You put an outfield player in goal and then don't even take a shot at him

[original v.L.n.]

is that wot happened? i turned off , too depressing

[peterc]

Jol what is your next step ?, resign?, take us down further in the league ?, knock us out of the two remainding cups ?. Or maybe get your act together and sort the serious problems out ASAP. It is quite obvious there is no determination left in the team.

[Thfc4Life]

I don't understand why 3-0 down at home we take our top goalscorer off, surely Keane should have come on for a midfielder or full back and not Defoe?

[denis-cro]

What to say ??? :o :o :o :o

[Billywhizz]

Agreed, did any of you guys notice that from the 25 min mark we changed to 451 with defoe left wing and Malbranque inside then change back at 40 mins, bit strange :rolleyes:

Got ya there.....tbh we did'nt get a look in today, they were far to superior all over the pitch, the title is there's to lose, if they get caught they need shooting and over the last couple games it just shows how far we are behind the top4. say knowmore:( :( :(

[Thfc4Life]

What was Robinson doing for Scholes' goal the cross was straight at the fat ****er! how many **** ups does he have to make before he is dropped/rested for a period of time?

[Chewy]

What was Robinson doing for Scholes' goal the cross was straight at the fat ****er! how many **** ups does he have to make before he is dropped/rested for a period of time?

**** ups? You mean after the amazing saves he pulled off today? If it wasn't for him we should of got beaten about 7-0

[SurreySpur]

why the hell are our so called fans booing Rooney as he is being subbed?

Then again, some of the games I've been to and the things some of our so called fans say I guess I should not be surprised.

Perhaps if they boo enough they think we might get a free goal :)

why the hell are our so called fans booing Rooney as he is being subbed?

Then again, some of the games I've been to and the things some of our so called fans say I guess I should not be surprised.

Perhaps if they boo enough they think we might get a free goal :)

Because he had a mad 5 mins where he tried to hack down everything in a white shirt. I'm on my PDA so i hpe this gets through.

He deserved it!!!!

Should we applaud him off the ****ing pitch????

The players made it comfortable for United, why the **** should the fans do the same??

I guess you think Ronaldo had a good game and deserved the penalty??

[Billywhizz]

Don't think he would have been able to deal with Rooney's curla if it went in, but he did keep the score a little bit more respectable.

[suBerb]

Credit to KingKeane who predicted the result. I hope that the bad period ends with this game. The referee played an important role for our defeat. He didn't give a penalty vs Chimbo and gave a nonexisting one against Ronaldo.

[nuttyhotspurs]

What to say ??? :o :o :o :o

how about........Martin Jol should be sacked ASAP!!!!!!!!! lol

[original v.L.n.]

ive also had enough of the big man. really top guy but he lacks the real DESIRE to excell. He is far too negative for my liking. We have a quality side and he usually sits back. The 2-2 draw against the scum last week sumed him up perfectly.

So i want him out but who could we realistically bring in?

Not many to choose from atm...

[MarlowSpurs]

I would comment but for the first time in my life I turned the tv off after the third goal. My faith in spurs is getting smaller and smaller, I need to go to Tibet, become a monk and find myself, and when I return see if we have actually won a ****IN game. Here's hoping.

[SurreySpur]

how about........Martin Jol should be sacked ASAP!!!!!!!!! lol

0-4 is bad enough

No heart from the players yet again hurts even more

[nuttyhotspurs]

we have to keep pluggin away now and try to salvage 7th in the league and hope that 2 of the big 4 get to the cup final (thats if we dont of course)

our run in could be a lot worse than it is

[canadaspur]

So i want him out but who could we realistically bring in?

Not many to choose from atm...

know who I'd like,but the bastard's at Sunderland...doing a job too!

[SurreySpur]

Aaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

4 ****ing nil

[SurreySpur]

What has MJ said about it in the interviews?

[SurreySpur]

Basically we were ucking awful yet again.

Zokora is a ****ing wimp..... 8.5million???????????????????
Defoe is a ****ing moody ****...........Lets cash in and sell him

Lets get Barton/Nolan in and start bossing the middle of the pitch, after all thats where games are won!!!

[nuttyhotspurs]

What has MJ said about it in the interviews?

no idea i switched it off coz i was too depressed. surely hes just going to admit they are miles better and we cant compete with them. i hope so anyway or he will go down in my estimations and a lot of other peoples

[SurreySpur]

Ive just heard mj say that we missed JJ and Teemu.

This is the first time i've doubted MJ, and i really disagree with his post match comments

[Indianspur]

Hmm . ill start with the defence!Tony is just not good enough and you may as well test Rocha out against manu at home as he's played against them many times before.i also think assou -ekotto is better than lee although we need someone strong in that position and both are weak.
midfield i believe zokora just doesnt cut the mustard and jenas would make a huge difference with huddlestone due to his engine and better all round attacking quality.Ghaly may also be another option in the centre or wing instead as he seems to create things or try things out rather than play backwards. both can be liabiltys however but we have to make do with what we have.
Left wing we got no1 but steed so no point arguing that point!!!
Now defoe i noticed is too weak against stronger defences and seems to have played bollocks last two games. think keane made a positive difference today coming on and we looked more dangerous.i like the way he links up play and shows some commitment to the cause even tho we were 4-0 down.its like others had given up but he still had a point to prove.think its time he started the next game.

[canadaspur]

Well Keano did break van der Sar's nose I suppose!

[neilmcnab]

from robbo and dawson keep punting the ball back to opposition, we dont stand a chance, the ball never gets to our creative players, again what do we work on in training, cos all we seem to do is get the ball to robbo or daws and they hump it to the other keeper/ centre backs, very poor, no real quality no wonder teams seem to smirk when they play us, plus we are at home and cant keep the ball,the hudd needs a rest, he has no movement, zakora doesnt go forward, all manu, and all arse midfielders seem to get forward in scoring positions, again what do they work on in training, jenas would add nothin to that performance, as we saw against arse, he too jus stood there in middle, we saw no pace no power no forward movement, yes against lower league teams they do get forward, so theres your answer, our performances are on par with championship levels of play.only bright light for me was malbranch, he tried runs , dummies, slide passes, he tried, and pascal tried, do they have it in them to win 4/5 of their remaining games?

[3325PARKLANE]

stunned,just stunned.
back from the lane,and yet another woefull referee in the premiership,another diver yet again exposed,another team hounding the already inadequate ref again,our lost voices still from the scum,heads down in that so familiar fasion seen in the last 3 seasons when go one nil down.no leadership,no left winger,no partner good enough fit to match daws,lennon marked out again,trying to like rooney for the enlgand cause but he does nothing to help me,but on the bright side,the groundsmen dont have to mend the left top corners of the lane,as we never go there.
it wasnt so much as we were bad,we wernt,and man u wasnt that brilliant,they just capitalised on our heads down,no fight attitude,and found spaces.1st half i actually thought we were better if not equal to them until the winker decided to give utd a lead into the tunnel by getting caught on a blade of grass.that hurt.we didnt need that.not now.
i dont mind losing,even 4-0 ,to a better team,and a fair team,with average reffing,but 1-o down to a dive,when we were better,then totally man u reffing,then woeful defending,and no spine,a sad sad day..14 years a yiddo,and reaaly thinking about bieng an armchair yid,getting too expensive to see a team with no fight back,like the good old days.yes,we are developing,but weve been developing for 4 years now,when are we going to get there.until we find someone in the midfield with balls,and skill,in the mould of the giants like others have,we will always lose it from there.and why dont we ever ever put anyone on the post for set pieces??:mad:

[SurreySpur]

stunned,just stunned.
back from the lane,and yet another woefull referee in the premiership,another diver yet again exposed,another team hounding the already inadequate ref again,our lost voices still from the scum,heads down in that so familiar fasion seen in the last 3 seasons when go one nil down.no leadership,no left winger,no partner good enough fit to match daws,lennon marked out again,trying to like rooney for the enlgand cause but he does nothing to help me,but on the bright side,the groundsmen dont have to mend the left top corners of the lane,as we never go there.
it wasnt so much as we were bad,we wernt,and man u wasnt that brilliant,they just capitalised on our heads down,no fight attitude,and found spaces.1st half i actually thought we were better if not equal to them until the winker decided to give utd a lead into the tunnel by getting caught on a blade of grass.that hurt.we didnt need that.not now.
i dont mind losing,even 4-0 ,to a better team,and a fair team,with average reffing,but 1-o down to a dive,when we were better,then totally man u reffing,then woeful defending,and no spine,a sad sad day..14 years a yiddo,and reaaly thinking about bieng an armchair yid,getting too expensive to see a team with no fight back,like the good old days.yes,we are developing,but weve been developing for 4 years now,when are we going to get there.until we find someone in the midfield with balls,and skill,in the mould of the giants like others have,we will always lose it from there.and why dont we ever ever put anyone on the post for set pieces??:mad:


You dont mind losing 4-0?????? Your ****ing joking right? 0-4? losing four-nil at home? you dont mind it?

[peterc]

stunned,just stunned.
back from the lane,and yet another woefull referee in the premiership,another diver yet again exposed,another team hounding the already inadequate ref again,our lost voices still from the scum,heads down in that so familiar fasion seen in the last 3 seasons when go one nil down.no leadership,no left winger,no partner good enough fit to match daws,lennon marked out again,trying to like rooney for the enlgand cause but he does nothing to help me,but on the bright side,the groundsmen dont have to mend the left top corners of the lane,as we never go there.
it wasnt so much as we were bad,we wernt,and man u wasnt that brilliant,they just capitalised on our heads down,no fight attitude,and found spaces.1st half i actually thought we were better if not equal to them until the winker decided to give utd a lead into the tunnel by getting caught on a blade of grass.that hurt.we didnt need that.not now.
i dont mind losing,even 4-0 ,to a better team,and a fair team,with average reffing,but 1-o down to a dive,when we were better,then totally man u reffing,then woeful defending,and no spine,a sad sad day..14 years a yiddo,and reaaly thinking about bieng an armchair yid,getting too expensive to see a team with no fight back,like the good old days.yes,we are developing,but weve been developing for 4 years now,when are we going to get there.until we find someone in the midfield with balls,and skill,in the mould of the giants like others have,we will always lose it from there.and why dont we ever ever put anyone on the post for set pieces??:mad:
Mate, the answer is we are not a team that is equipped to challenge for any honours.

[neilmcnab]

and it dont get any easier, next up shef utd away, they fighting for survival, we fighting for, i dont know search me, lol, then after that f.a cup fulham, who incidently are on the up, again a team fighting to consolidate a place in prem, not our usual div 2/3 opponents,we get in cups, then after that we welcome bolton, the team who beat us 1st game of season, 35 yard shot that left englands no1. flat footed, a nother fighting team, cant see to many wins in feb....

[3325PARKLANE]

surreyspur, read my post in its context,and not just sentences,i said i dont mind losing four nil to a better team,adequate reffing,and a fair team,
today none of that appeared.
man u cheated,wasnt better (1st half),reffing worst ive seen this season,and we wasnt committed after the penalty.
we havnt ever recently been played off the park and lost 4-0,all being played fair,so no,i am not EVER happy to see us lose 4-0 in that fasion,it hasnt ever happenned. with exception to the man city comeback,and that was just sick.
can you honestly say that if a team came to the lane,played brilliantly,no cheating,good reffing,good sportsmanship,and us playing our hearts out,but we lost 4-0,you wouldnt come away feeling ok,and take it on the chin??

[hastingsyid]

From my point of view i dont give a **** who we play,manure,barcelona,real madrid or even ****ing brazil we should not be losing 4-0 especially at the lane,im just too angry at the moment to even talk spurs

[wayne wonder]

bunch of tossers i dont even wanna talk about them anymore:mad:

[JuicE]

I have to say that the first half although lacking of many on target shots, was actually a real spectacle. We were playing excellent passing football against the best team in England. It was a frantic rate and we matched or bettered them around the field. Then after that dodgy penalty and then the vidic goal the wheels fell off. Glad i went to bed befor the 4th goal.

****ing awful! Not sure what to expect anymore this season.

Heard Australia are after Klinsmann as national coach!

[wayne wonder]

I have to say that the first half although lacking of many on target shots, was actually a real spectacle. We were playing excellent passing football against the best team in England. It was a frantic rate and we matched or bettered them around the field. Then after that dodgy penalty and then the vidic goal the wheels fell off. Glad i went to bed befor the 4th goal.

****ing awful! Not sure what to expect anymore this season.

Heard Australia are after Klinsmann as national coach!

Mate i stopped watching after the 2nd!! I have no confidence in any of them anymore and im sick to the stomach watching that crap at the moment ****ing bunch of *****s:mad:

[neilmcnab]

our players are lucky they arnt in italy, there they wouldnt tolerate such performances, wek in week out from a team who are suppose to have ambitions of winning somthing this season, even now we are only in jan, and i cant see or even dream of winning any trophy, or getting high enuf position in the league,

[Defoe8]

Watched the game on Sky Sports 1 and when we went 0-2 down, I turned off the game in disgust.

I'm glad I did, as I think I'd have gone mental if I'd had 2 watch us go 0-4 down.

****ing pathetic performance, I know it was Man Utd but 2 get turned over 0-4 at our home ground, there's no excuse for that. The team has no spine and no bottle!!

Those players need 2 realise they are playing for Tottenham Hotspur, the team that hs won the FA Cup 8x, won the League Cup 3x, won the UEFA Cup 2x and won the European Cup Winners Cup!! We also used 2 b up there amongst the big boys, so by no means are we a small club!!

[JuicE]

Hi RickyH! :rolleyes:

[Spur]

I'd like to know why Aaron didn't run up until 85 mins had been played. I'd like to know know why some are still waiting to get changed still as well.

[Ginola's Son]

It's hard to find the words to sum up a performance like that without doing some serious contradiction of myself.

I always do my best to not take it personally, and try not to be to harsh on the players who simply had an off-day...but I can't do that. Not this time.

Of course losing to Man U is no disgrace. The football they play is superb and they play it consistantly over the 90 minutes and they do it with style, the same style a Spurs team once had...but you'd have to be in your 50's to recall it.

But losing to Man U, Chelsea or any side by that margin on your home ground is never ever acceptable. And the XI we put out today is about as close to our best line-up we could get, and we were still humbled. Thrashed is the word. The scoreline flatters us, not them.

Yes we played well in the first half, yes we got at them, closed them down, tried to play for pride after Wednesday, but of course, Mark ****tenburg - who has the distinction of being by far the worst referee I've ever seen in my life - gives a stupid penalty and we go in a goal down at half time...Ok, so thats a setback, but christ, its only 1-0, we can still get at them for 45 more minutes after HT, West Ham managed to get 3 pts, why the **** can't we? Because we were sulking after the penalty! We decided not to ****ing defend a series of 3 corners, with Robbo the only one refusing to crumble, in the end, even he couldn't stop a ludicrously free header by the average Vidic. By that point it was game, set and match, and we can only thank Man U's mercy for not smacking us 6 or 7 nil, because they could have if they wanted to, abject is the word, so is galling and so is abysmal.

Now, after a defeat like that, we must start asking questions that two weeks ago I wouldn't dare ask. Jol has to take the rap for that, we had our best XI out, we asked for pride, what we got was shit. Even Lennon, whose supposed presence cost us so dearly on Weds was way off the pace. This match was a perfect chance to claw back some dignity, but instead, we played like a pub team...a disabled pub team. I don't care if we were good for 40 minutes or that Ronaldo dived, we still played like arseholes on our own ground. I hope the players can sleep tonight knowing how much grief that have caused the Spurs masses. Even making a great deal of us switch of in disgust, if we were losing to Man U while playing well it could be stomached, but we did not. We're a joke.

Gutted!!

[JM_]

Life sux! Why do I bother to get my hopes up week in, week out? I'd like to see Mido play with Berba in the next game. Then we can kick the ball upfield all day long... Jesus I hate it when Robbo and Daws always kick it long!

COYS!!!!!!

[Danishspurs]

I'm gutted. Shocked. Actually I think we play ok for the first 45 minutes but we're just not in the same class as last year. I've been blaming the attitude for the last few weeks but we did work hard today.

I'm sorry to say this but: Oh we miss Carrick. Badly.

Compared to last season we got more talent. But we don't get the points. We've improved at right back and has more talent up front. And a better and more experinced Lennon. But what we're missing is a midfield that protect the back 4. Carrick and Davids did that last season and that's the reason we didn't concede many goals last season. Zokora did that well in the first half against Man U, but the big problem for me is Hudd. He a great talent, no doubt but he's lazy and slow and doesn't protect the back 4 at all. 2 or 3 times every match he makes brilliant balls over the top but it's not enough. Defensively he's shocking and he's not mature enough to play at the moment I think.

[wayne wonder]

No use in talking about players who've gone?!?!

Anyway we're so predictable it's unreal robbo or daws punt it upfield for a berba/mido flick on or we give it to Lennon we've got **** all about us and im ashamed at the moment week in week out i gotta come into work and defend my shit team but im nopt doing it anymore i've had enough.

The last time i saw any flair was when those cardiff fans lit one up in the crowd at ninian park we're so wank we're making bolton, pompey and READING look like world beaters.

We've got nothing about us and it's making me ill i mean we've had the best reserve side in the last 2 seasons but yet he doesn't wanna try them out or he sends the ****ers on loan i mean mark yeates scored at the weekend that tells you it all!! No barcham, ifil etc nothing just wank players like ghaly, zokora, gardner, lee.

Spurs are seriously testing me at the moment 55mins i turned the game off i don think i've ever done that b4 even when we've lost 5-3 to the mancs or 4-3 to man city. I dont care what you say Jol comes up with COMPLETE utter shite we miss Teemu AND Jenas big whoopee we still have a so called brilliant squad why make excuses?? mate your a nice guy and we appreciate what you've done but your rapidly going down in my estimation and its a shame.

[shoot_ffs]

i have to disagree about playing well in the first half. we competed and looked interested for 15 mins, then they settled and we never got our important players in the game, and i'm not sure we had a shot on goal in the first half.

I'm surprised jol played gardner instead of rocha, we needed experience and when ronaldo started taking on lee, gardner was leaving him out to dry. the scholes goal was a disgrace. also what was with making robbo skipper? dawson is the only one with any guts, it should be him. he's holding us together at the moment.

we all have our opinions on the problems at spurs, or with the tactics and jol, but i think his media stance gives the impression of there being no leadership, and i can't stand that as a fan. Maybe it transfers to our players too.
i can understand his thinking to some degree, that it doesn't make any difference what he does on the touchline or in interviews, the players have to find the right attitude on the pitch. The flip side of that is the fans think we're leaderless and want to know everyone's pulling their weight.
Somebody needs to show some spirit as we're playing really badly like a team of individuals, we're leaking goals at an alarming rate, and we have no leaders or fight in the team. I have no idea who chooses the players who now play for us, and that creates more questions. i think we deserve some answers.

[MaccYid]

As you will see from my previous posts i have always been a big Jol fan and firmly believed after the work he did last season he deserved to stay next season.

However the performances over the last 2 weeks have seriously made me think twice. We look so tactically inept, the midfield isnt working with the strikers. When the hell did we last see a centre midefielder break beyond the front 2 on a regular basis.

Anyway i am now very concerned about next season if Jol stays in charge. Yes we could still get a trophy this season but it would not change the fact we have gone backwards.

So if you were the board, do you back him or sack him in the summer. Who ever the manage is will have an awful lot of money. And for the record, i really don't know whether he should be backed and sacked or in the summer!!!

[SCIFIN17YID]

I am uterly pissed, I saw on the side Rocha & Another player warming up, but not once did I see Rocha get placed on the pitch, yet shitty Gardener, stay's on the pitch ? what the **** is up with that ? clearly we need the experience in our defence, so why does MJ make such a bad decision does who was at the game would have saw ROCHA warming up on the side line for a good long time, I then go to use the toilet, and MANU score a ****ing goal, I then missed, I then go for a beer, and I come back to see 3 - 0 ! that was totally frustrating, I stay in the game for like 10 mins, and then decide to leave, just as soon as i get out of the ground they score a ****ing again, first half we competed with them, then second had the ref give's some ****ed up decisions, then our team collapse's, personally we need to get rid of Gardener, and Stalteri they are complely pant's, we must also think of why are MJ warmed up ROCHA and decided not to play him, I enjoyed myself in the ground for like 30 mins, I feel sorry for the spurs fan's that was actually paying £200 - £250 off the tout's, I am very let down, about this loss as everyone else must be, we can only learn from our mistake's and think to the future, are team is fully capable of, competing/defeating a team such as MANU, cough cough CHELSEA, but to loose 0 - 4 at home is ridiculous, I hope that, a few player's get rested, and that MIDO can come on the pitch, and play with berbatov, ROCHA also make him get a chance on the pitch, he is far a much better and more experenced player then the shitty GARDENER.

[peterc]

It's hard to find the words to sum up a performance like that without doing some serious contradiction of myself.

I always do my best to not take it personally, and try not to be to harsh on the players who simply had an off-day...but I can't do that. Not this time.

Of course losing to Man U is no disgrace. The football they play is superb and they play it consistantly over the 90 minutes and they do it with style, the same style a Spurs team once had...but you'd have to be in your 50's to recall it.

But losing to Man U, Chelsea or any side by that margin on your home ground is never ever acceptable. And the XI we put out today is about as close to our best line-up we could get, and we were still humbled. Thrashed is the word. The scoreline flatters us, not them.

Yes we played well in the first half, yes we got at them, closed them down, tried to play for pride after Wednesday, but of course, Mark ****tenburg - who has the distinction of being by far the worst referee I've ever seen in my life - gives a stupid penalty and we go in a goal down at half time...Ok, so thats a setback, but christ, its only 1-0, we can still get at them for 45 more minutes after HT, West Ham managed to get 3 pts, why the **** can't we? Because we were sulking after the penalty! We decided not to ****ing defend a series of 3 corners, with Robbo the only one refusing to crumble, in the end, even he couldn't stop a ludicrously free header by the average Vidic. By that point it was game, set and match, and we can only thank Man U's mercy for not smacking us 6 or 7 nil, because they could have if they wanted to, abject is the word, so is galling and so is abysmal.

Now, after a defeat like that, we must start asking questions that two weeks ago I wouldn't dare ask. Jol has to take the rap for that, we had our best XI out, we asked for pride, what we got was shit. Even Lennon, whose supposed presence cost us so dearly on Weds was way off the pace. This match was a perfect chance to claw back some dignity, but instead, we played like a pub team...a disabled pub team. I don't care if we were good for 40 minutes or that Ronaldo dived, we still played like arseholes on our own ground. I hope the players can sleep tonight knowing how much grief that have caused the Spurs masses. Even making a great deal of us switch of in disgust, if we were losing to Man U while playing well it could be stomached, but we did not. We're a joke.

Gutted!!
You couldn't have described it better, Absolute disgrace and an insult to all the fans, mainly to the fans who pay a lot of money to see them play like a bunch of overpaid, over-rated ****s. We need a massive clear out, come summer, starting from managment down to the players.

[Ginola's Son]

The last time i saw any flair was when those cardiff fans lit one up in the crowd at ninian park

That made me chuckle.

Jol's interviews are annoying me. As if we missed Tainio? Did anyone see his last few performances? They were bog-awful, I was pleased when he got injured so we couldn't play him. Jenas? Ok, so he looked good against Southend....SOUTHEND!! A team headed for League 1. He should have been hung after his LAZY NONPLUSSED attitude to the biggest game in any true spurs players agenda - A Semi against those ****s. I hardly think those two would have transformed a 0-4 defeat into a stirring brave victory. No, I was quite satisfied with the 11 that was put out, and they had the talent to not lose by such a margin...or dare I say it, grab a point.

There aren't many teams that won't concede a lot to Utd, but I don't care about those teams, I care about my team.

[Spur]

You couldn't have described it better, Absolute disgrace and an insult to all the fans, mainly to the fans who pay a lot of money to see them play like a bunch of overpaid, over-rated ****s. We need a massive clear out, come summer, starting from managment down to the players.

Yes, that's the way to carry on ensuring continued progression - get everyone out and start again :confused:

[Ginola's Son]

I dunno, a mass exodus is what you need sometimes. Out of the currecnt Spurs squad, I think only Robbo, Daws, Chimbo, Mido, King, Steed, Berb, Defoe, Keane, hudd and Lennon would survive. The rest can **** off. No heart at all!

[peterc]

Yes, that's the way to carry on ensuring continued progression - get everyone out and start again :confused:

So, we leave the rot there and continue to decline. :confused:

[MiloMinderbinder]

I hate to say I told you so but......So is Jol still the best thing since sliced bread or are some of you being forced to alter your opinion in the cold light of day and based on the facts?

I didn't merely have a stab at a 4-0 scoreline, I thought about it, predicted that we would as per usual play 2 holding/defensive central midfield players against a central midfield of Carrick and Scholes and thus saw a spanking on the cards. Now if I with my limited knowledge of football tactics was able to discern this a week or so before the game, why didn't Jol?

Also, what the **** is the point in playing two players who patently were not fit, Lennon and Berba should not have been playing but as Jol has burned bridges with Mido and failed to indentify an alternative way of playing without Lennon was forced into playing 2 half fit players.

And then of course we hear another pathetic excuse from our wonderfully gifted manager, now he says we missed TT and JJ. So based on his previous comments we will be fine, as long as we can field our entire squad at the same time. Next week he'll probably bemoan missing Edgar Davids "yessh, no, we mish hish experience and fight"

NOT GOOD ENOUGH JOL.

[Ginola's Son]

Too powerless to argue. Guess you are right.

I still think sacking Jol would be a back-step. Despite our current shitness, we've still come a long way.

[MiloMinderbinder]

Too powerless to argue. Guess you are right.

I still think sacking Jol would be a back-step. Despite our current shitness, we've still come a long way.

Agreed.

No thanks to Mr Jol. You watch GS, another couple of the usual performances and WHL will start to experience ESS (empty seats syndrome), the shit stuff we play should be a sacking offense on it's own.

Our idiot fans outed Graham for playing better stuff than this, but because Jol comes accross as a nice guy he's getting away with it, I got neck ache from watching our long ball game a couple of weeks ago.

Wake it up guys, Jol must improve things RAPIDO or go at the end of the season.

[choda]

Neil's setting up a new twin-railed web address called kneejerkcity.com.

It will also lead right to this website.

Listen, we were rubbish again yesterday, there's no denying it. However, that doen not mean the side should be ripped apart. This is a transitional time. A very difficult transition, and one I hope we don't pay for by missng out on europe altogether. That would be awful.

What would be even worse, however, would be to rip apart the foundations and excellent but half finished architecture that is our team, just to start over because you've hit a sticky patch.

Need I remind people that for three seasons Manu were nowhere near where they are now, which is one of THE best sides in europe. They were building. Understand these things. And they were re-building from the bones of a team which had already won everything!

You don't magically go from mid table obscurity to a top four side over night. First you get into europe and then you learn next season how to compete on more than one front. You try to finish as high as you can in the league and try to win a cup. Then the next season you really kick on to a new level and challenge the big boys.

Sure, some of us thought we would do better in the league, but in hindsight it's not easy. If you become a european team it often initially deflects attention way from your bread and butter.

What was the main difference between the sides yesterday: some quality, belief, work-rate and the courage to really play.

In short the difference was between a developing side and a developed side. They've got the winning mentality, we don't yet. But, there's been undeniable progress under Jol. Some say 'well he's spent loads', but has he?

Does anybody have the figures for money in and money out during his time in charge? I'd say he has spent very little more than or the same as any other manager we've had. Don't confuse turnover with the actual surplus expenditure.

[wayne wonder]

That made me chuckle.

Jol's interviews are annoying me. As if we missed Tainio? Did anyone see his last few performances? They were bog-awful, I was pleased when he got injured so we couldn't play him. Jenas? Ok, so he looked good against Southend....SOUTHEND!! A team headed for League 1. He should have been hung after his LAZY NONPLUSSED attitude to the biggest game in any true spurs players agenda - A Semi against those ****s. I hardly think those two would have transformed a 0-4 defeat into a stirring brave victory. No, I was quite satisfied with the 11 that was put out, and they had the talent to not lose by such a margin...or dare I say it, grab a point.

There aren't many teams that won't concede a lot to Utd, but I don't care about those teams, I care about my team.

Mate im fuming the club i love has resorted to long ball tactics its making me sick!! We have the probably the worst midfield i've seen down there for years there's no drive, commitment, flair and no body can string a pass together or track back with their man.

Dawsons playing by himself i feel for him a really do and Bebatov only turns it on when he feels like it maybe it's too cold for him but im sure it's far colder in germany you tart!!! Give me Barton and Parker and Gamst Pedersen ASAP:mad:

[jrio]

Also, what the **** is the point in playing two players who patently were not fit, Lennon and Berba should not have been playing but as Jol has burned bridges with Mido and failed to indentify an alternative way of playing without Lennon was forced into playing 2 half fit players.


Mido was suspended and if anything it was Jol calling off the deal with City that has kept him here. I guess he will leave in the summer. I didn't think the fitness of Lennon and Berb were factors in the defeat. Berb had 2 of our best opportunities but United defended well, ruled the midfield and snuffed out Lennon.

[choda]

Agreed.

No thanks to Mr Jol. You watch GS, another couple of the usual performances and WHL will start to experience ESS (empty seats syndrome), the shit stuff we play should be a sacking offense on it's own.

Our idiot fans outed Graham for playing better stuff than this, but because Jol comes accross as a nice guy he's getting away with it, I got neck ache from watching our long ball game a couple of weeks ago.

Wake it up guys, Jol must improve things RAPIDO or go at the end of the season.

Graham spent similar amounts of dough. Did he ever finish fifth? Did we ever look a side that could get out of mid table?

[Ginola's Son]

Graham spent similar amounts of dough. Did he ever finish fifth? Did we ever look a side that could get out of mid table?

Graham may have finished 5th if not removed from his job unfairly. But you are right, Jol did a lot for us last season, but you must capitalise on it. Everton did the same thing, had an awesome season...then sank again. And now it looks like we've gone the same way. And except for Carrick, its the same team that achieved it. I guess its playing these tough teams that are destroying us, but thats what football is, high-grade competition against the best in the land, we are not up for it.

[Welsh Spur]

I'm personally sick and ****ing tired of having different managers all the ****ing time. Since I've supported Spurs, in 13 years we have had 7 managers, yes 7, that's a lifespan of less than 2 years each. Frankly, that's ****ing pathetic.

And If I list the managers,

Gerry Francis, Christian Gross, David Pleat, Glenn Hoddle, George Graham, Jacques Santini and Martin Jol

One shines through from the others. Yes we're playing shit but for me it's a dip in form at the moment. I said before the game that 4-0 was unacceptable (I hope you stuck a tenner on that KK) and my confidence and faith in MJ is declining by the game but **** me, give the guy a chance, he achieved a lot last season without the distractions of the cups, it was all focused on the 4th spot. This year we've had a lot more games but I think our problems mainly lie in having inadequate cover, or not even a player at all in some areas (LM most notably).

I say shut up until the middle of May, our league form may have gone and we could have lost that semi against scum playing good football, it wasn't an easy tie (we did throw it away though) Has everyone forgotten that we have won every single game in Europe? It's much slower than the PL which is why I think we're doing so well in it, but please lads reserve judgement for a bit, MJ has been great and at the first sign of a wobble (which is right now) you're all crying 'SACK HIM'. Talk about faith.

I'm not utterly convinced but I'm willing to ride out the season and see how it pans out, he deserves that much at least.

[MiloMinderbinder]

But, there's been undeniable progress under Jol. Some say 'well he's spent loads', but has he?

Does anybody have the figures for money in and money out during his time in charge? I'd say he has spent very little more than or the same as any other manager we've had. Don't confuse turnover with the actual surplus expenditure.

Yes he has spent MILLIONS AND MILLIONS, which is why we progressed a bit. Yes he is extraordinary negative, yes he is full of bullshit excuses, yes he can't change the course of a game. Yes, and I hate to keep pointing it out, but thouse who go to the games are sick and ****ing tired of it, we play shit football despite having a talented squad, we get shit results against teams we should beat. We can not compete against the better sides because Jol only sets out for a point, even against Chelsea he set us up for a pointbut we got lucky.

I dunno if you are contending that Jol should be given more time or that we have been unlucky recently. The answer to both of those is in the negative, indeed in reality we were very lucky last year, but then again we had some shape to the team which we clearly don't have, oh hold on yes we do, it's called flat.

[olly27]

I saw this coming...we'r just disjointed as a side devoid of any fight and determination..having the the necessary fight should be an absoloute prerequsite...its just not there...you look at teams like reading and bolton..it just seems inexplicable...the quality we have is vastly superior to those sqauds mentioned and yet we are no were near realising our potential...yes bad performances can be attributed to these results..yes you can question tactical nous....but its more than this...there doesn't seem to be any inspiration coming from anywhere throughout the club at the moment...why arn't the players fighting harder?..showing more pride as a team?..pulling together more when up against it?..these are the fundamental flaws in our side at the moment...there just seems so little spirit...a lack of unity and solidarity...if these things arnt addressed..we will end up finishing mid-table..winning nothing..failing to secure european football next season...and we will be back right were started after all this heavy investment..

I hope, and certainly expect, and improvement against the blades...I dont care how we win..win we must...I want to see every single spurs player giving a 110%..surely they can see the writing on the wall now..if this doesn't spark a considerable improvement nothing will...and our season will just fizzle out......

[choda]

Graham may have finished 5th if not removed from his job unfairly. But you are right, Jol did a lot for us last season, but you must capitalise on it. Everton did the same thing, had an awesome season...then sank again. And now it looks like we've gone the same way. And except for Carrick, its the same team that achieved it. I guess its playing these tough teams that are destroying us, but thats what football is, high-grade competition against the best in the land, we are not up for it.

Yet, Yet, Yet.

And we're no Everton. There are a good few reasons why. Number one, they crashed out of europe immediately. It's a different situation. And this season they've not hit those heights again, and they've nothing else to concentrate on.

They haven't bought as well as us, or bought very young players. They'll never be one of the big guns the way they are going.

We can still easily finish 6th and win a cup. If we don't make europe we have to ask big questions, but whose to say with the quality we have that we couldn't make the leap next year.

There is a lot of quality here. It is different.

[jrio]

Graham may have finished 5th if not removed from his job unfairly. But you are right, Jol did a lot for us last season, but you must capitalise on it. Everton did the same thing, had an awesome season...then sank again. And now it looks like we've gone the same way. And except for Carrick, its the same team that achieved it. I guess its playing these tough teams that are destroying us, but thats what football is, high-grade competition against the best in the land, we are not up for it.

There's no evidence for that. Noticeably Graham's not been offered anything since he left so there doesn't seem to be anyone in charge of a club that believes that. Even Sugar was exasperated with the lack of progress under Graham.

It's happened to a lot of clubs, Everton being the prime example. We thought our financial resources would mitigate that but without King we look like going into freefall. It's not the same team by any means but most of the new players are meant to be better.

[Ginola's Son]

There is a lot of quality here. It is different.

Maybe, but when asked to show commitment, this quality outfit just couldn't cut it.

[Ginola's Son]

There's no evidence for that. Noticeably Graham's not been offered anything since he left so there doesn't seem to be anyone in charge of a club that believes that. Even Sugar was exasperated with the lack of progress under Graham.

I don't think Graham is interested in managing anymore, he's quite happy doing punditry.

[jrio]

Yes he has spent MILLIONS AND MILLIONS, which is why we progressed a bit.
Last season's team didn't cost millions, so that wasn't the reason for progress.

I dunno if you are contending that Jol should be given more time or that we have been unlucky recently. The answer to both of those is in the negative, indeed in reality we were very lucky last year, but then again we had some shape to the team which we clearly don't have, oh hold on yes we do, it's called flat.
We weren't lucky in all those games where we came back from being a goal down. We've completely lost that this season, the loss of Carrick(whom Jol didn't want to sell) seemingly unravelling the team.

[jrio]

I don't think Graham is interested in managing anymore, he's quite happy doing punditry.
He's resigned himself to it. There's a difference. I don't think he'd have turned West Ham down if he had been in the running, and he definitely wouldn't turn down Chelsea if Jose leaves.

[Ginola's Son]

Well, it baffles me that a man who has won league championships isn't coveted by other clubs.

[olly27]

the figure used on sky sports 1 was 68 million..thats a lot

[Ginola's Son]

I'm just thinking of the amount that charities that could have benefitted if we just didn't bother with Zokora.

[MiloMinderbinder]

Last season's team didn't cost millions, so that wasn't the reason for progress.

We weren't lucky in all those games where we came back from being a goal down. We've completely lost that this season, the loss of Carrick(whom Jol didn't want to sell) seemingly unravelling the team.

Err, what we got Defoe, Keane, Dawson, Carrick, Robinson etc on frees or produced them?! They cost £'000'000's.

I contend that we were extremely fortunate last season to grind out all those results and threw results we ought to have claimed, this is being borne out be events. Whislt Carrick is clearly missed the fact is that we have had ample time to redirect our style of play, which we have done, to become the least atttractive, one dimensional, gutless side in the league.

No flair, no punch, no ideas.

[Spur]

the figure used on sky sports 1 was 68 million..thats a lot

SO how much of that 68mil is still at the Club? It's not the lot of it as we have got rid of alot of that already.

[Ginola's Son]

KK - You cannot fluke that sort of thing. The table doesn't lie. We were grinding out results last season because we had the belief. This season we do not.

[choda]

the figure used on sky sports 1 was 68 million..thats a lot

There's been a massive turnover. The pertinent figure is money spent minus moneyed recouped.

Saying he spent loads is meaningless to me until I'm given the realistic figures. I don't think he's spent proportionately more than previous coaches.

By my reckoning he's spent net 7-8 million this year and a similar amount last year. The rest was a very young and undeveloped side he unherited, with only a few established players: Robbo, King, Keane, Defoe.

I'd say that's the ball park. That's hardly huge spending, is it?

[jrio]

Err, what we got Defoe, Keane, Dawson, Carrick, Robinson etc on frees or produced them?! They cost £'000'000's.


You seemed to be making the point that Jol had spent millions whereas most of those players were already here or on their way. A lot of the players that subsequently came into the club only cost a few million, pretty much the going rate for a Prem player. Dawson £3m, Carrick £2.75m, Robinson £1.5m, small change.

[choda]

Well, it baffles me that a man who has won league championships isn't coveted by other clubs.

I must say it baffles me a bit too. No club he's ever been at has been worse off when he left. How far he can go in the modern game though, is debatable.

I wouldn't want him back. I think Jol is a level above him, even despite current circumstances.

[wayne wonder]

We have too many players of average ability to do anything!!

Lee, Teemu, Stalteri, Ghaly, Jenas, Zokora, Gardner, Ziegler, Bennie!!!

AVERAGE PLAYERS who will bring us down simple!! He's gotta get rid of all of them people seem to think we have a great squad?????? what the **** do they have shit in their eyes?

[jrio]

Well, it baffles me that a man who has won league championships isn't coveted by other clubs.
Factoring in the 'bung' affair plus his achievement of being the only manager I know to manage a sequence of 4 nil-nil draws at 2 clubs, it's not so baffling. Most managers have a shelf life and Georgie's has long gone.

[choda]

I think what we have to get to the root of is why people expect this team to immediately jump from mid-table into a european force and one of a big five.

This isn't Roy of The Rovers. It takes excellent planning, and a hell of a lot of development of young players.

I may have been a built guilty of this thinking myself at the start of the season, but now I just see it as being a bit premature. I still think the signs are good for the future.

[choda]

We have too many players of average ability to do anything!!

Lee, Teemu, Stalteri, Ghaly, Jenas, Zokora, Gardner, Ziegler, Bennie!!!

AVERAGE PLAYERS who will bring us down simple!! He's gotta get rid of all of them people seem to think we have a great squad?????? what the **** do they have shit in their eyes?

These players are a step up on the previous (pamarot, atouba, brown, davis etc.), the next lot will be a further step up. Do you not understand how you get better on a limited budget?

And some of those players have potential. Lee is beefing up and starting to get better. It's not his fault he was paying an unplayable Ronanldo. I think he's getting better.

Bennie could get good after he learns positioning. Zokora is clearly not fit since the malaria. He looked quality before that. It's a bit tragic actually. He could be finished.

Ghaly could be a super player. He shows signs.

[MiloMinderbinder]

KK - You cannot fluke that sort of thing. The table doesn't lie. We were grinding out results last season because we had the belief. This season we do not.

I didn't say fluke, I said fortuntate there is a difference. Circumstances dictated that we finished where we did, the other teams were very inconsistent and we capitlaised on it, whilst playing pretty drab stuff which was masked by inidividual brilliance from Keane and Lennon.

Some of the results last year said more to me than the position we finished in, I am thinking of away at Sunderland or the capitulation in the cups which showed to me that there was serious issues underlying both the teams backbone and the managers tactical ability.

I think it's worth pointing out that Jol brought in LYP and Stalteri as 1st choice fullbacks, that to me does represent a rather worrying lack of judgement in a player.

And by the by, George Graham can;t manage anyone as he has a skin condition which requires him to spend a fiar amount of time in sunnier climes.

Oh and choda I know the Irish economy is in "tiger" mode, but £33mil is not a limited bugdet by anyone's standards. Face facts, ewith the squd we have and the money we have spent we ought to be a lot higher than 11th, and as we have yet to play any decent sides in the cups, that argument doesn't hold water either.

[wayne wonder]

These players are a step up on the previous (pamarot, atouba, brown, davis etc.), the next lot will be a further step up. Do you not understand how you get better on a limited budget?

Why bring them in the 1st place its not rocket science mate and im sure we've got a bigger budget than most teams unless your holding the petty cash??

[jrio]

We have too many players of average ability to do anything!!

Lee, Teemu, Stalteri, Ghaly, Jenas, Zokora, Gardner, Ziegler, Bennie!!!

AVERAGE PLAYERS who will bring us down simple!! He's gotta get rid of all of them people seem to think we have a great squad?????? what the **** do they have shit in their eyes?
Most of those were here last season when that was the consensus. All managers have a list of players that didn't work out, cheap or expensive. To take Ferguson: Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba, Veron plus several goalkeepers.

[choda]

I'll tell you what really worries me right now:

Gardner being picked ahead of Rocha. Surely this lad is better, if not then he's a horrendous buy.

Gardner a walking time bomb before he makes a blunder or gets caught out of position. In between that he's actually a good player. Hence, another guy like Jenas, with big head problems. Incidentally, I still think he's better than weinerport, too weak.

Zokora is a shadow if the pre-malaria player. I think there is something seriously wrong with his fitness. We have to currently write this guy off. He's playing useless.

Defoe was back to his woeful static rubbish yesterday. At least Keano got on the ball and tried things and had some movement, even if he couldn't finish his dinner. Given a proper run he'd get good sharpness back.

[choda]

Oh and choda I know the Irish economy is in "tiger" mode, but £33mil is not a limited bugdet by anyone's standards. Face facts, ewith the squd we have and the money we have spent we ought to be a lot higher than 11th, and as we have yet to play any decent sides in the cups, that argument doesn't hold water either.

Why do some people skip good points?

Is the turnover of players lost on you chaps?

NET spending is the only thing that's relevant here.

[3325PARKLANE]

SEEN THE HIGHLIGHTS ON TELLY...the penalty that wasnt ,and neville all over chimmy...
REALLY WANT TO KILL RONALDO.
i reckon alexll have a word with him about diving though,eh???NOT A HOPE IN HELL.
AND DID I SEE A SLY WINK TOWARDS ANOTHER PLAYER AFTER THE DECISION WAS GIVEN???
FREEZE FRAME IT SLOWLY...

:mad:

[MiloMinderbinder]

Why do some people skip good points?

Is the turnover of players lost on you chaps?

NET spending is the only thing that's relevant here.

No it's not. That's complete rubbish and you know it, this is not a balance sheet business we are talking about, the fact that we have a chairman who is very astute in the selling of (mainly) squad players is neither here nor there. The fact that most of the players brought in are no better than those shipped out is a saliant point.

We have spent a fortune whether you choose to acknowledge that fact or not,much like we play shit football whether you understand that or not. In any event take out the sale of Carrick and what are you looking at figure wise? A fortune.

[jrio]

For this season the major transfer deals have been:

OUT Carrick £14m, Davenport £3m = £17m

IN Berb £11m, Chimbo £5.25m, Zokora £8.2m, Mal £2.5m, Rocha £3.3m = £30m

Roughly net spending of £13m, not a vast amount.

[Ginola's Son]

I'm sure we're still getting cash for Carrick.

[choda]

For this season the major transfer deals have been:

OUT Carrick £14m, Davenport £3m = £17m

IN Berb £11m, Chimbo £5.25m, Zokora £8.2m, Mal £2.5m, Rocha £3.3m = £30m

Roughly net spending of £13m, not a vast amount.

I counted Carrick as 18 million, which is what it will be soon. and you forgot Reid for 3 million.

[Shuggie13]

I'll tell you what really worries me right now:

Gardner being picked ahead of Rocha. Surely this lad is better, if not then he's a horrendous buy.

Gardner a walking time bomb before he makes a blunder or gets caught out of position. In between that he's actually a good player. Hence, another guy like Jenas, with big head problems. Incidentally, I still think he's better than weinerport, too weak.

Zokora is a shadow if the pre-malaria player. I think there is something seriously wrong with his fitness. We have to currently write this guy off. He's playing useless.

Defoe was back to his woeful static rubbish yesterday. At least Keano got on the ball and tried things and had some movement, even if he couldn't finish his dinner. Given a proper run he'd get good sharpness back.

Yes Keane got on the ball well, his one-on-one with John 'Shilton' O'Shea was fantastic ;)

[jrio]

I counted Carrick as 18 million, which is what it will be soon. and you forgot Reid for 3 million.

Yeah, forgot Reid but the extra £4m for Carrick is conditional and not necessarily soon.

[choda]

Yes Keane got on the ball well, his one-on-one with John 'Shilton' O'Shea was fantastic ;)

Don't forget it was the bright Keano mind that gambled on Rio switching off and Sheasie did great there, he's better in goals than defending!

All Irish people are good in goals. We've all played gaelic football, you see.

Or as Martin 'shithead shouter' Tyler put it, "Well he's probably played those gaelic sports in Ireland that involve some 'hands skills'."

He probably doesn't realise this weekend Dublin played Tyrone in front of 82,000 people in a truly awesome stadium, a game which was sold out weeks ago.

[choda]

Yeah, forgot Reid but the extra £4m for Carrick is conditional and not necessarily soon.

I believe it's 40 appearances or so and a million for winning the league! So we won't have long to wait.

[MiloMinderbinder]

I believe it's 40 appearances or so and a million for winning the league! So we won't have long to wait.

ahh, I knew there was an ulterior motive for giving him the freedom of the park yesterday.

[jrio]

I believe it's 40 appearances or so and a million for winning the league! So we won't have long to wait.

I don't think it's quite that easy. Some of it is related to CL, possibly winning it.

[olly27]

Yeah, forgot Reid but the extra £4m for Carrick is conditional and not necessarily soon.

you forgot mido as well

[choda]

No it's not. That's complete rubbish and you know it, this is not a balance sheet business we are talking about, the fact that we have a chairman who is very astute in the selling of (mainly) squad players is neither here nor there. The fact that most of the players brought in are no better than those shipped out is a saliant point.

We have spent a fortune whether you choose to acknowledge that fact or not,much like we play shit football whether you understand that or not. In any event take out the sale of Carrick and what are you looking at figure wise? A fortune.

Do you realise what you are saying?

Jol sanctions the buying and selling, of which you admit the difference in money going in and out is not huge. Therefore he's not spent millions, therefore he's not had the financial leaway you have suggested.

Therefore the progress the club has made has been largely due to Martin Jol and better buying by him.

[choda]

I don't think it's quite that easy. Some of it is related to CL, possibly winning it.

I doubt levy would stand for a clause like winning the cl.

[choda]

you forgot mido as well

Yeah, I counted him in my calculations. It still comes out overall at 7-9 million. Hardly huge spending, is it?

[jrio]

you forgot mido as well

Easily done looking at his perfomances this season. Conveniently the transfers cancel each other out.

[MiloMinderbinder]

Do you realise what you are saying?

Jol sanctions the buying and selling, of which you admit the difference in money going in and out is not huge. Therefore he's not spent millions, therefore he's not had the financial leaway you have suggested.

Therefore the progress the club has made has been largely due to Martin Jol and better buying by him.

Oh sorry, my mistake must have been someone else that bought; Berbatov, Zokora, BAE, LYP, Rocha and Mido, Alnwick, etc this season.

I admit nothing, he's had a fortune to spend, if he spends it badly that his fault, not the chairmans, not the players, his fault. Likewise, all these crass tactical errors and general negative play, nothing to do with the players, it's Jol, if it were the players he wouldn't pick them.

I fail to see any progress as things stand, or have I missed all our fabulous, sparkling performances over the last two years, we are deadly dull, very predictable (do you reckon predicting 4-0 was a complete fluke or do you think I may just know what I am talking about). Finishing in 5th was down to a) luck b) having a large squad playing ferwer games than anyone else c) Lennon and Keane's form, which was without precedent.

[jrio]

I doubt levy would stand for a clause like winning the cl.

Possibly not, unless it was a negligible amount compared to the other conditions, but equally David Gill isn't going to give us £4m for winning the league and Carrick completing a season. My impression is that the main fee is £14.6m and there are several supplementary additions roughly amounting to 500k each focusing on placings in the Prem and CL. I would figure that it generally pays out regularly over the length of Carrick's contract.

[Ginola's Son]

Jol isn't solely responsible for bringing players in. Often the chairman can personally go for a player over the managers head. Then we have this commoli fellah who locates players for Jol.

[jrio]

(do you reckon predicting 4-0 was a complete fluke or do you think I may just know what I am talking about).

I do(a fluke) since I've never known anyone who could accurately predict the future. As a test give us a regular prediction every Friday and we'll monitor it. You may be the bookies' worst nightmare. Still, we're in good company as Bolton also lost 4-0 at home to them and they're 5th.

[olly27]

Yeah, I counted him in my calculations. It still comes out overall at 7-9 million. Hardly huge spending, is it?

I know where you coming from..I still maintain, as I have said all season, that we'll finish 8th or 9th...its all immensley frustrating..but as you say there are good signs for the future and it would be foolish to rip apart such promising foundations...this is the crux of it..most of us recognise the potential and want the finished article now...unfortunately it doesn't work like that.. we can see glimpses of what could be happening on a more rugular basis in a few seasons time...we have to give it time..in the mean time I would like to see more fight with the ability to grind more results out, particularly away from home..

[MiloMinderbinder]

Jol isn't solely responsible for bringing players in. Often the chairman can personally go for a player over the managers head. Then we have this commoli fellah who locates players for Jol.

Levy was being advised by Sven Goran Erickson (I know, frightening!) as to which young English players had a bright furture in the game, hence Jenas and Routledge. Of course this doesn't mean to say that Jol wouldn't have the power of veto, cos I am sure he does.

If Commoli is responsible for Zokora can we make him pay back the transfer fee via a salary sacrifice?

[MiloMinderbinder]

I do(a fluke) since I've never known anyone who could accurately predict the future. As a test give us a regular prediction every Friday and we'll monitor it. You may be the bookies' worst nightmare. Still, we're in good company as Bolton also lost 4-0 at home to them and they're 5th.

LOL, OK but I get 25% of your winnings. What's next? Sheff Utd, away, 0-1 with oh wait a minute erm ok err Stead sciring and us to play the most negative football since the paraplegics XI took on the blind school.

FYI, we are now worse than Bolton.

[jrio]

Ignore the cups(too much luck involved in draws etc) and look at Jol's Prem record. First season(partial) 9th, then 7th, 5th. I'd say that's a fair record and generally places us around the top quarter. The question would be can he progress from that. Definite doubts and the start of next season will be a very revealing test that could make or break him.

[jrio]

LOL, OK but I get 25% of your winnings. What's next? Sheff Utd, away, 0-1 with oh wait a minute erm ok err Stead sciring and us to play the most negative football since the paraplegics XI took on the blind school.


Yep, 25% it is. For each forecast I'll put on a notional £2 bet based on your forecast and we'll count it up at the end of the season(Prem games only).

[choda]

Oh sorry, my mistake must have been someone else that bought; Berbatov, Zokora, BAE, LYP, Rocha and Mido, Alnwick, etc this season.

I admit nothing, he's had a fortune to spend, if he spends it badly that his fault, not the chairmans, not the players, his fault. Likewise, all these crass tactical errors and general negative play, nothing to do with the players, it's Jol, if it were the players he wouldn't pick them.

I fail to see any progress as things stand, or have I missed all our fabulous, sparkling performances over the last two years, we are deadly dull, very predictable (do you reckon predicting 4-0 was a complete fluke or do you think I may just know what I am talking about). Finishing in 5th was down to a) luck b) having a large squad playing ferwer games than anyone else c) Lennon and Keane's form, which was without precedent.

It's another non-sequential arguement with KK.

Do you not get the concept of net spending? He sold players we had and bought better players in exchange, for not a huge amount more. Therefore he's not had a fortune to spend, no matter how belligerantly you ignore it.

Hence the proportionate progress, fifth last season, now in going great in europe and taken a lot more seriously. Despite the bad current form the club has progressed. Something you did admit to previously.

I thought we'd lose yesterday as well. I'm sorry, I like to debate, not bow to you as some sort of football sage, something I don't see much evidence of.

The guys who are talking sense around here lately are those who are keeping their balance in the light of day.

[MiloMinderbinder]

Yep, 25% it is. For each forecast I'll put on a notional £2 bet based on your forecast and we'll count it up at the end of the season(Prem games only).

OK, can I have a season long bet that we only play decent football once every 360 minutes please, that'll cover any losses we sustain:p Except of course it'll be odds on, no bookie would be stupid enough to take the bet.

Fulham 2 (McBride & erm, err, Routle..no....Brown). Spurs 1 (Robinson - goalkick). attendance - 14,567 all of whom are bored. ;)

[choda]

Jol isn't solely responsible for bringing players in. Often the chairman can personally go for a player over the managers head. Then we have this commoli fellah who locates players for Jol.

Jol has the veto though, in all cases, unlike Santini. But I'm told he was a political appointment with a view to being replaced at guess when... christmas.

[choda]

Ignore the cups(too much luck involved in draws etc) and look at Jol's Prem record. First season(partial) 9th, then 7th, 5th. I'd say that's a fair record and generally places us around the top quarter. The question would be can he progress from that. Definite doubts and the start of next season will be a very revealing test that could make or break him.

I agree entirely. I just think it is unfair to say he's shit now. We have to wait. There could easly be some egg-faced folks on here come the end of this season or next.

[Ginola's Son]

Jol has the veto though, in all cases, unlike Santini. But I'm told he was a political appointment with a view to being replaced at guess when... christmas.

Naive. The chairman rules absolute.

[Spur]

Every team who goes through quick progression taks a backward ste pat one point which results in two steps forward.

Liverpool finished 5th afterall, then managed to accumulate the second strongest squad in England.

[MiloMinderbinder]

It's another non-sequential arguement with KK.

Do you not get the concept of net spending? He sold players we had and bought better players in exchange, for not a huge amount more. Therefore he's not had a fortune to spend, no matter how belligerantly you ignore it.

Hence the progress, fifth last season, now in going great in europe and taken a lot more seriously. Despite the bad current form the club has progressed. Something you did admit to previously.

I thought we'd lose yesterday as well. I'm sorry, I like to debate, not bow to you as some sort of football sage, something I don't see much evidence of.

The guys who are talking sense around here lately are those who are keeping their balance in the light of day.

you can argue that we haven't spent a fortune till your green in the face, the facts do not disguise it. The amount we have spent on the player we have acquired is the reason fore progress, I would expect the same sort of progress from a monkey with a penchant for shapes.

How long will it take you to understand that football is not a rational business and that net spending is not a thing to be considered. Do you look at the balance sheet at the end of the year or the league table?

As for balance in the light of day, how many times have I said "oh I love Jol he's brilliant"? or have I always said he's not up to it?

And in case you haven't understoodm I will know more about the team/club because I go and watch them that's how it works in the real world, TV and internet gives you bugger all of an idea as to what is really happening in a game.

[choda]

Naive. The chairman rules absolute.

Oh it's totally obvious is it? How 'naive' of me. How silly to think that the the team manager has the biggest say on who comes in and out.

[MiloMinderbinder]

Oh it's totally obvious is it? How 'naive' of me. How silly to think that the the team manager has the biggest say on who comes in and out.

no change there then. He's the coach not the manger and yes Levy and Commoli have the primary say in what players to go for, Jol can veto but they do not have to listen to him, why, cos the other two are in it for the long haul, and Jol ain't.

[jrio]

Every team who goes through quick progression taks a backward ste pat one point which results in two steps forward.

Liverpool finished 5th afterall, then managed to accumulate the second strongest squad in England.
And I can recall some of their performances away in the league that season when they were truly dreadful. Beating Juve, Chelsea and Milan in the final obscured how poor Benitez's first season was. And both finals he has won were only won on penalties after Gerrard saved them.

[jrio]

Levy was being advised by Sven Goran Erickson (I know, frightening!) as to which young English players had a bright furture in the game...
...who gets his advice from Wenger. Hmmm, suddenly it's all too clear.

[Ginola's Son]

Oh it's totally obvious is it? How 'naive' of me. How silly to think that the the team manager has the biggest say on who comes in and out.

I don't mean to personally insult you WS, but if you really think that Jol can dictate to the chairman, then that is a naive view. If Commoli secures a deal for Ronaldo against Jol's wishes, then there isn't a lot Martin can do about it other then resign in protest.

[MiloMinderbinder]

...who gets his advice from Wenger. Hmmm, suddenly it's all too clear.

that's why Wallnut went to the World Cup, Wenger wanted to see if he was ready but didn't want to pay the ridiculous add ons to S'oton for every game he plays, so he recommended him to SGE as a potential match winner and SGE being the fool he is beleived him, diregarding the number one rule of life - never trust the French, except to stab you in the back.

[choda]

you can argue that we haven't spent a fortune till your green in the face, the facts do not disguise it. The amount we have spent on the player we have acquired is the reason fore progress, I would expect the same sort of progress from a monkey with a penchant for shapes.

How long will it take you to understand that football is not a rational business and that net spending is not a thing to be considered. Do you look at the balance sheet at the end of the year or the league table?

As for balance in the light of day, how many times have I said "oh I love Jol he's brilliant"? or have I always said he's not up to it?

And in case you haven't understoodm I will know more about the team/club because I go and watch them that's how it works in the real world, TV and internet gives you bugger all of an idea as to what is really happening in a game.

Funny how people comment that I'm one of the most football educated people on here then, isn't it? It seems one can see more than enough on tv.

Your right that it's not a rational business, you have to take all the factors into consideration, and make a rather intuitive call on things.

And there are many flaws in your spending arguement. Your either saying he's bought very well or he's not had hardly any money to spend, because the figures are not a huge difference for comings and goings.

I'd say the truth is somewhere in between, which still suggests he's done well.

And you're leaving out huge factors in team building, particularly from youngsters. One of the reason the top four are so far ahead is that they are competing well on two/three fronts all the time. That's an obstacle for any other team to overcome to get to their level.

[MiloMinderbinder]

Funny how people comment that I'm one of the most football educated people on here then isn't it? It seems one can see more than enough on tv.

Your right that it's not a rational business, you have to take all the factors into consideration, and make a rather intuitive call on things.

And there are many flaws in your spending arguement. Your either saying he's bought very well or he's not had hardly any money to spend, because the figures are not a huge difference for comings and goings.

I'd say the truth is somewhere in between, which still suggests he's done well.

And you're leaving out huge factors in team building, particularly from youngsters. One of the reason the top four are so far ahead is that they are competing well on two/three fronts all the time. That's an obstacle for any other team to overcome to get to their level.

Uhuh, I reckon they were taking the piss. I don't think you can gauge anywhere near the overall understanding from TV etc that you do from being at a game, as anyone that actually goes will tell you, but that's for another day.

At last though we agree on something in that there are factors that must be addressed. The blend of the squad is all wrong, the lack of experience is a massive factor, for god sake Dawson is currently a senior player, no leaders on or off the pitch (Keane and Daws apart) the only truly experienced player and one that kept the overall shape last year, has just been turfed out. Who carries the can for that? Why have we not brought in a leader or calming influence? I happen to have an opinion about that but you won't like it.

[choda]

I don't mean to personally insult you WS, but if you really think that Jol can dictate to the chairman, then that is a naive view. If Commoli secures a deal for Ronaldo against Jol's wishes, then there isn't a lot Martin can do about it other then resign in protest.

I'm Choda by the way, now I'm really insulted! Only joking.

I only meant he has the main say, most of the time.

Levy's not stupid, far from it. He's not going to upset the club by going right over his manager's head.

If the chairman is adament about one signing then there isn't much the manager can do, but I'd still say Levy would take huge heed of what his manager would say about it.

I think the dynamics at the club are excellent. Jol certainly has the veto over Commoli. If Commoli likes a player but Jol doesn't then he won't come, simple as. I doubt if that works the other way around. It shouldn't anyway.

[Spur]

I'm of the belief that we have a very structured way as to who has the power. Unlike at Chelsea where it is controlled chaos in Roman's Army.

I think every man knows exactly what to do, and the way Jol speaks about the board I think they are very much in power and have a large say as well.

[Spur]

I think the dynamics at the club are excellent. Jol certainly has the veto over Commoli. If Commoli likes a player but Jol doesn't then he won't come, simple as. I doubt if that works the other way around. It shouldn't anyway.

I don't believe he does. When he first joined he mentioned he is here only ruling the first team - nothing else - there is someone at the Club who controls every aspect of everything ever. Jol is here for the 1st team only. Perhaps people find his approach bad because they are not used to the european approach, which he and Comolli and Levy (through research) have brought in.

Evidence of the manager not having a veto would be Carrick and Santini. Certianly a player the manager did not want.

[choda]

Uhuh, I reckon they were taking the piss. I don't think you can gauge anywhere near the overall understanding from TV etc that you do from being at a game, as anyone that actually goes will tell you, but that's for another day.

At last though we agree on something in that there are factors that must be addressed. The blend of the squad is all wrong, the lack of experience is a massive factor, for god sake Dawson is currently a senior player, no leaders on or off the pitch (Keane and Daws apart) the only truly experienced player and one that kept the overall shape last year, has just been turfed out. Who carries the can for that? Why have we not brought in a leader or calming influence? I happen to have an opinion about that but you won't like it.

No they weren't.

We were having a debate about the points chap, why are you trying to descend into insults, grow up.

Incidentally, I'd love for us to manage similar clubs and see who'd do better. You wouldn't be so mouthy then.

[choda]

I don't believe he does. When he first joined he mentioned he is here only ruling the first team - nothing else - there is someone at the Club who controls every aspect of everything ever. Jol is here for the 1st team only. Perhaps people find his approach bad because they are not used to the european approach, which he and Comolli and Levy (through research) have brought in.

Evidence of the manager not having a veto would be Carrick and Santini. Certianly a player the manager did not want.

I'm pretty sure it's how I think it is. I've heard Jol speak about it. People were very skeptical because they thought it was how you are saying and then they put it to bed.

Santini was only a puppet, I wouldn't mind that.

If you think about it would be a bit of disaater if they were going over his head and then he had the players he didn't want. There would also be some big wastes of money. Nah, I can't see it. Levy's too smart for that.

[Ginola's Son]

Unlike at Chelsea where it is controlled chaos in Roman's Army.


If controlled chaos is what you get after two back to back titles then I'm all for it.

[Spur]

I'm pretty sure it's how I think it is. I've heard Jol speak about it. People were very skeptical because they thought it was how you are saying and then they put it to bed.

Santini was only a puppet, I wouldn't mind that.

If you think about it would be a bit of disaater if they were going over his head and then he had the players and didn't want them. There would also be some big wastes of money. Nah, I can't see it. Levy's too smart for that.

But then he's also said that he and Comolli only talk about players, or players that Jol feels he needs - Arnesen said the same thing. I don't think Jol can veto anything that anyone wants to do, we have a set structure and chain of command and Jol, whilst perhaps being the most important, is at the bottom. It's the reason most English managers didn't want the job, people like Curbishley and O'Neill didn't want it because they don't have control.

[olly27]

anyway lads...who can see the team pulling together and grinding out a result this saturday...or will we be another sub-standard display..

[choda]

But then he's also said that he and Comolli only talk about players, or players that Jol feels he needs - Arnesen said the same thing. I don't think Jol can veto anything that anyone wants to do, we have a set structure and chain of command and Jol, whilst perhaps being the most important, is at the bottom. It's the reason most English managers didn't want the job, people like Curbishley and O'Neill didn't want it because they don't have control.

I think they turned us down because it wasn't the right time for them. They are both very honourable to contracts and their clubs.

And if you are right then I have a very different opinion of Levy and our future for that matter.

[Spur]

I think they turned us down because it wasn't the right time for them. They are both very honourable to contracts and their clubs.

Do you actually believe that? Despite Curbs being in the last season of his contract (after that he signed a new one year deal) and O'Neill being on a rolling contract for the very reason so he had more freedom...:cool:

And also Curbs just slipped it in that he 'only lives 5 minutes from their training ground'...biggest hint in the world if you ask me!

[choda]

Do you actually believe that? Despite Curbs being in the last season of his contract (after that he signed a new one year deal) and O'Neill being on a rolling contract for the very reason so he had more freedom...:cool:

And also Curbs just slipped it in that he 'only lives 5 minutes from their training ground'...biggest hint in the world if you ask me!

You could be right. But they could also be as old fashioned as to say they don't want to even be involved in a structure with a technical director at all.

Maybe they want full power over everything. My impression is Jol is in charge of first team matters and has the veto on first team purchses, but Commoli is the main man for the strucutre and buying youths, special coaches etc.

And O'Neill had a huge emotional attachment to Celtic, it may not have been the time he wanted to go, and then his wife got ill too. Wasn't that around the same time.

Did we ask Curbishley to manage us?

I think Arnesens plan was always to bring in Jol.

[RuFuS]

anyway lads...who can see the team pulling together and grinding out a result this saturday...or will we be another sub-standard display..


As far as i'm concerned they are one and the same thing :o

[choda]

As far as i'm concerned they are one and the same thing :o

We have to look for 12 points from the next 6 matches, at least.

We need a run of good results now.

[jrio]

Reading Martin Cloak's column at TopSpurs and some of his claims ring true.

"We have a team cobbled together from people Jol rates, people Commolli rates, and people Levy sees as a good investment. Players arrive at Spurs and soon realise there is no team plan, they are just here short term in order to keep the money rolling. So there's no fight and no team spirit. For some players, like Danny Murphy, it quickly becomes obvious they were bought against the manager's wishes for some potential sell-on value."

There have been far too many players arriving for small and medium fees that then get sold on 18 months - 2 years later at no loss and often a profit. Murphy's arrival made no sense for him other then he was frozen out at Charlton and wouldn't have to move house. We still had enough players in the centre and also added Ghaly for good measure. It's also not easy to see the profit potential in buying Murphy, a player very near the end of his top-flight career.

Some of the decisions on players in the summer looked disconnected. Mido seemed to be a player it was decided hadn't proved himself sufficiently yet we tie up a late deal for him, decide that was a mistake in December and to sell him in January, then there's a last-minute reversal. The option is taken up on Davids for a further year, after his on-off dance with Ajax, but this is a player who had a physical fight with Keane last season and another incident with the manager spells the end in January. Not great business to be paying a player 47k a week for 6 months for hardly playing.

"Spurs is not a football club, it's a football clearing house. It can operate at the top of this minor league because of its enormously loyal, and flush, fan base."

Sadly, we see all too much of this, from the excessively high ticket prices to the current machinations with the membership scheme. It's convenient to blame Jol for the current results and still give Levy credit for his deal-making to release funds to bring in quality players. There's a suspicion that Levy regards making profits on transfers the main business of the club with some football thrown in. A lot of players seem to come in to make up the numbers. Where did the obsession with central midfielders start? 2 seasons on it shows no signs of abating. Maybe the manager, DoF and chairman are allowed 2 each.

Spurs are starting to look like Boro when they'd achieved European football. Heavy defeats may start to roll in with King absent for nearly 2 months whilst the impressive home record has just disintegrated. The UEFA Cup looks the likeliest prospect for success but it would be no surprise if we reached the final, competed well for 45 minutes and then got pulverised. Surely a player like Berbatov wouldn't hang around long at a club more likely to finish 10th then 4th, whilst a number of the English players must have started to look at Carrick's career now going up and up and be considering their future options.

[RuFuS]

Spurs is not a football club, it's a football clearing house. It can operate at the top of this minor league because of its enormously loyal, and flush, fan base.

Have you read DREAM ON by Alex Flynn ?. It'll make you very cynical about football in general.
It took Sugar a nano second to work out he had 35k of supporters @ every game plus another 30k plus who get there as and when they can and still buy the shirt.
To be fair Sugar wanted to build upon that fan base to take the club forward but the other investors wanted a quicker return on their dosh.
Que, Enic and Levy.

[YorkshireGooner]

Guys you got indone by Ronaldo the best winger in the prem, He showed you a fine example of wing play.

[Spur]

You could be right. But they could also be as old fashioned as to say they don't want to even be involved in a structure with a technical director at all.

Maybe they want full power over everything. My impression is Jol is in charge of first team matters and has the veto on first team purchses, but Commoli is the main man for the strucutre and buying youths, special coaches etc.

Yea that's what i'm saying, they're so old fashioned they wouldn't want it - or you could describe it as so British that they wouldn't want it, as no British teams have it but us. I also think that can be attriubted to fans feelings an attitudes as well, look at us now, people are claiming things all over the place but no-one is completely sure of whether it is true or not. I've made my mind up from the Ajax model, which our whole Club is now based on according to some, and from what Jol and Levy and Arnesen said straight up first thing when it was done.

I think Arnesens plan was always to bring in Jol.

I don't dispute that for a second i'm absolutely convinced it was the mdium or long term goal.

[Spur]

Guys you got indone by Ronaldo the best winger in the prem, He showed you a fine example of wing play.

And of cheating. These are hollow victories in my opinion, you think your title successes and Chelsea's of the last years have any credit? No, respect goes to teams like Barca bec ause they earn what they win.

United, Arsenal and Chelsea are all in the same boat - they cheat to win, throughout history teams that do this take more criticism than credit - only the uneducated would continue to support the team through these times and hold their victories in a great light.

Ask yourself this. The three best teams in history - what did they win between them?

The answer is nothing.

[Defoe8]

Martin Jol needs 2 show some ****in passion for once in his life, the guy stands on the sidelines doing **** all even when we're losing!!

Also I'm fed up of seeing jolly old Martin Jol - it's okay we lost because we played well for 10mins, show some anger, be honest and ruthless in your interview and for gods sake give the team a rollicking of a lifetime. As the saying goes - nice guys come last.

Also did u see the United players harrassing the ref when he failed 2 give them a penalty, when we should have got one, did we do anything - no!! Our players are ***** and last time Martin Jol actually fined one of our players 4 doing it!!

[Spur]

Also I'm fed up of seeing jolly old Martin Jol - it's okay we lost because we played well for 10mins, show some anger, be honest and ruthless in your interview and for gods sake give the team a rollicking of a lifetime. As the saying goes - nice guys come last.

That's how he comes across to the press for a reason. You think he doesn't shout at them? You do see it on the sidelines - despite what you say - when he grits his teeth and waves his arms, it's even been quite common recently. Unfortunately.

[Ginola's Son]

Jol loves this club, and he tries to behave in a dignified manner, while others like Wenger actually hit fellow managers when they don't get their way.

[Gino Ginelli]

Well I was actually in London this weekend, but I was working solid the whole time until last night, and I seriously didn't get the chance to find out the score until yesterday lunch time. When informed of the scoreline, and then the 1st goal being due to a dive from the cheating loathsome human excrement that is cristiano "****face" ronaldo, I went from despair, to abject anger and hate, to squalid resignation and simply thought... "what's the point?"

I expected a ****ting, we got a ****ting, but it's hard to take when they have to cheat to do so. We probably shouldn't have folded again, but I'm gonna stick up for them and blame the cheating bastards of the game instead.

BTW, i've yet to even see any of it, and to be honest, I can't be arsed to either.

[MiloMinderbinder]

No they weren't.

We were having a debate about the points chap, why are you trying to descend into insults, grow up.

Incidentally, I'd love for us to manage similar clubs and see who'd do better. You wouldn't be so mouthy then.

I was messing around but never mind, I don't trade insults it's a waste of time.

To be frank though, if you don't appreciate that watching a game on TV/internet is so far removed from the reality of what occurs in the game then it's a bit of a moot point carrying on the debate. Quite simply you are at the mercy of the match director, you can't see movement off the ball, you can't see the pattern of play or the shape of the tem, hell you can't even see if a pass is going to the right player because the angles are usuallly so skewed.

[jrio]

To be frank though, if you don't appreciate that watching a game on TV/internet is so far removed from the reality of what occurs in the game then it's a bit of a moot point carrying on the debate. Quite simply you are at the mercy of the match director, you can't see movement off the ball, you can't see the pattern of play or the shape of the tem, hell you can't even see if a pass is going to the right player because the angles are usuallly so skewed.
"Removed from the reality of what occurs in the game"! It isn't that far removed. You're just being snobbish. You miss the movement off the ball and long angled passes can look wayward through not seeing their target, but I don't usually have a problem with the game pattern and team shapes. Depending where you are in the ground you miss things that can be seen on tv. Perspective is a problem from one end to another and you can't see sly fouls. Most fans at the weekend wouldn't have been aware of how poor Ronaldo's dive was if it hadn't been replayed on the screens. You've got a great view from near the middle of the East Stand but try sitting nearer the ends and there are obvious disadvantages compared to tv.

[choda]

I was messing around but never mind, I don't trade insults it's a waste of time.

To be frank though, if you don't appreciate that watching a game on TV/internet is so far removed from the reality of what occurs in the game then it's a bit of a moot point carrying on the debate. Quite simply you are at the mercy of the match director, you can't see movement off the ball, you can't see the pattern of play or the shape of the tem, hell you can't even see if a pass is going to the right player because the angles are usuallly so skewed.

Okay fair enough. It didn't seem that way, because we were having a bit of a ding dong debate. Smileys?

I take your point about seeing more at the games, but you see enough on the screen, in my view. Maybe some of us are better telly watchers.

I wish I could get to more games. And I've started avoiding League of Ireland altogether. I find lower league stuff galling. Like most spurs fans I go to see artistry and the beautiful game.

[MiloMinderbinder]

"Removed from the reality of what occurs in the game"! It isn't that far removed. You're just being snobbish. You miss the movement off the ball and long angled passes can look wayward through not seeing their target, but I don't usually have a problem with the game pattern and team shapes. Depending where you are in the ground you miss things that can be seen on tv. Perspective is a problem from one end to another and you can't see sly fouls. Most fans at the weekend wouldn't have been aware of how poor Ronaldo's dive was if it hadn't been replayed on the screens. You've got a great view from near the middle of the East Stand but try sitting nearer the ends and there are obvious disadvantages compared to tv.

ah but jrio I AM a football snob, and proud of it, which is why I made the bizzare post about Bolton (bolt on) cos I hate any team that doesn't play the game the "puirists" way, anything less is a con IMO.

I agree that you can miss things in detail when at the game (unless our helpful screens show the replay;) ) but overall you have a far better idea of what's going on, what's working and what isn't. But if you go week in week out you can very often tell 1st off with the naked eye whether a foul is a foul etc. For example, who that watched England on TV didn't see "live" that Wilko had gone into touch? it was obvious, and yet the TRO missed it!

And err do I sit East Upper bang on halfway one row from the front:)

[MiloMinderbinder]

Okay fair enough. It didn't seem that way, because we were having a bit of a ding dong debate. Smileys?

I take your point about seeing more at the games, but you see enough on the screen, in my view. Maybe some of us are better telly watchers.

I wish I could get to more games. And I've started avoiding League of Ireland altogether. I find lower league stuff galling. Like most spurs fans I go to see artistry and the beautiful game.

I know now I missed out the smiley:) :D Happy now!

I find watching Spurs on TV the hardest thing to do in football, it's so frustrating I often end up shouting myself hoarse in the firm belief that it'll make a difference:rolleyes: .

I wouldn't mind seeing a LoI game just to check out the standard, given that Doyle and that other bloke are deemed good enough to go straight into the Permiership it can't be that bad?! Plus I try to watch a couple of "lesser" games every season (Watford don't count, or is that can't count) to remind myself how fortunate I am to see the relative quality of the Premiership, try it next time we are shit (next week then) it really is cathartic.

The only thing about going to the games is that a) it's a 'mare to get to the ground b) you wouldn't believe the cost, I've been going for 20 years and I still baulk every season c) it ruins your weekend if we lose it really does, you can tell the Spurs fans on a Saturday night after a loss,we're the ones who sit in the corner sulking:o

[RuFuS]

Guys you got indone by Ronaldo.

Indone ? :eek:

[Matix]

The result had to be expected however they got it and Ronahldo is one of "the best divers in the world" As one Phil Scolari was once quoted, so the ref cant really be blamed.

But it is galling that spurs let this 1st goal have the effect it did on them. Where was the fighting spirit, where was the passion, all the fight just sapped out of them. In the end Man Utd were deserving winnners but we shouldnt have allowed that scoreline.

As for Jol, im not interested in how he is front of the press. I much prefer him being his typical Jol self than the whingy fergies or wengers. Hes admired by many for the way he acts in defeat. But i dont believe he is constantly like that with the players. It sounds like he stood his ground over his bust up with Davids.

We now need to hold our heads up high and start winning some games starting with improving a away form at Bramall Lane. An 11th place is not an accepatble position for Spurs with that squad.

[choda]

I know now I missed out the smiley:) :D Happy now!

I find watching Spurs on TV the hardest thing to do in football, it's so frustrating I often end up shouting myself hoarse in the firm belief that it'll make a difference:rolleyes: .

I wouldn't mind seeing a LoI game just to check out the standard, given that Doyle and that other bloke are deemed good enough to go straight into the Permiership it can't be that bad?! Plus I try to watch a couple of "lesser" games every season (Watford don't count, or is that can't count) to remind myself how fortunate I am to see the relative quality of the Premiership, try it next time we are shit (next week then) it really is cathartic.

The only thing about going to the games is that a) it's a 'mare to get to the ground b) you wouldn't believe the cost, I've been going for 20 years and I still baulk every season c) it ruins your weekend if we lose it really does, you can tell the Spurs fans on a Saturday night after a loss,we're the ones who sit in the corner sulking:o

It's probably as good as league one in England. But it's more the stye I'm complaining about. The style is much like lower leagues in Britain. The emphasis is way towards being physical. But there are some good players, which can be hard to spot. That might explain why some of the lads move late to the prem. There are many precedents for it too; Roy Keane, Paul McGrath being two famous ones. They were both 19, 20 ish when they went over.