Lippi

[MiloMinderbinder]

There's a story doing the rounds that Marcello Lippi has said that he would love to manage a big club in England, sooner rather than later.

Given the division of opinion in respect of Mr Jol's continued tenure as Head Coach is it time to strike whilst the iron is hot and move for a manger such as Lippi?

[Ginola's Son]

No

Its time to show some ****ing faith in Jol.

[Gino Ginelli]

See if we could do the Roy Evans/Houllier trick and have them Jol / Lippi as a "partnership"?

[Ginola's Son]

If I remember rightly, we were the ones who destroyed that 'trick' by smacking Liverpool 3-1 in the League Cup at Anfield. Happy days when we used to win away at a top club.

[Shuggie13]

And how many seasons would we give Lippi before we called for his head? 2 maybe if he hadn't won the League and Champions League?

[Ginola's Son]

Yeah.

I bet we'll have Pleat back by 2009

[MiloMinderbinder]

If I remember rightly, we were the ones who destroyed that 'trick' by smacking Liverpool 3-1 in the League Cup at Anfield. Happy days when we used to win away at a top club.

ah winning away those are some hazy memories. I presume that we actually set out to get a plucky draw because I have forgotten what it's like to see a team set out to win away from home.

[Billywhizz]

See if we could do the Roy Evans/Houllier trick and have them Jol / Lippi as a "partnership"?


Bingo!!!!! maybe Lippi as a tactical director who would have an advisory role to Jol & Hughton on purely tactics only, it could work.

[olly27]

defintely give jol more time...a lot more actually...I might question his tactics sometimes...but when you look at the big picture..he's done a decent job and brought as forward as a club..people seem to forget that BMJ is on a steep learning curve...I reckon it will all pull together with time...so the queation should be do you trust Jol's ability as a manger or not?..or do you trust his judgement or not?...I for one do and am extremely happy that he is ours :)

[Ginola's Son]

Nah, we went for the win. No replays is there, would have gone to pens otherwise.

I think John Scales got the first, then Iversen. Owen pulled one back before Allan Nielsen got the 3rd.

[MiloMinderbinder]

Nah, we went for the win. No replays is there, would have gone to pens otherwise.

I think John Scales got the first, then Iversen. Owen pulled one back before Allan Nielsen got the 3rd.

Oh so much like the scenario last night then, when we had to win. I forget, what happened, did we really go for it last night? enlighten me.

(Allan Nielsen, god every time I see Zokora I keep thinking "hmm Nielsen, but without the commitment")

[Gino Ginelli]

Jol & Hughton on purely tactics only, it could work.

Isn't it the tactics, or lack thereof, that everyone thinks is Jol's problem. Partnerships like that only mean one thing... Jol would be gone by the summer.

I'd really rather not another foriegn manager coming in. Jol's okay as he knows the english game as a player and is learning well as a coach. Lippi's contintental approach would mean starting the rebuilding process all over again.

Repeating myself but last season was the party, this is the hangover, next season will be detox. It'll be a couple of seasons before Jol's barmy army starts trouncing all. For the key players, last night is vital experience if nothing else.

Now let's put this issue to bed until the summer please.

[spurs61]

We're now in a catch 22 situation. It seems to me that Jol cannot motivate the team or alter it during games. The question is, would a new coach be able to change the fortunes of the side this season? As was mentioned before, Jol's negative and unambitious tactics appear to have rubbed off on the players, can they change the mentality which has been installed in them before May?

I would have loved to have seen Lippi as our manager, he's proven at every level and has desire to win, sadly I think the opportunity has passed.

Reality Check;

Basically, unless we win the UEFA Cup, we're doomed to returning to the familiar climes of mid-table obscurity and the loss of our better players. Unless something radically changes within the next 2 games we will not qualify through the league, we won't win the FA Cup because we can't get a result away from home if our lives depended on it and we can't beat the bigger sides.

[spurs61]

Allan Nielsen, god every time I see Zokora I keep thinking "hmm Nielsen, but without the commitment"

Oh crap, you're right! That is the best description I've seen of Zokora.

[MiloMinderbinder]

Oh crap, you're right! That is the best description I've seen of Zokora.

Of course, have you ever known me to misjudge a player?!

[spurs61]

Do I have to answer this? I have to put up with you blowing your own trumpet regularly, why give you more of a reason?!

Yes, you have been spot on about the majority of our signings within the past five or so seasons, well done!

(Except for the full-backs though, you thought Lee was gonna be a good player and you still think BAE is good enough)

[MiloMinderbinder]

Isn't it the tactics, or lack thereof, that everyone thinks is Jol's problem. Partnerships like that only mean one thing... Jol would be gone by the summer.

I'd really rather not another foriegn manager coming in. Jol's okay as he knows the english game as a player and is learning well as a coach. Lippi's contintental approach would mean starting the rebuilding process all over again.

Repeating myself but last season was the party, this is the hangover, next season will be detox. It'll be a couple of seasons before Jol's barmy army starts trouncing all. For the key players, last night is vital experience if nothing else.

Now let's put this issue to bed until the summer please.

I like your analogy of last/this/next season. Not sure though, I think last season was a case of capitalising on other teams inconsistency, and we did out upmost to bugger it up with - Negative Tactics and Basic Errors, our old friends.

Guys like Lippi come into a club having analysed what is there, what is needed and what isn't needed and then start from there. If he had to purge the club it would speak volumes about what had gone on before (oh and in case you hadn't noticed ALL the best managers are foreign not a single Englishman could be counted as a "top manager" which is why McLaren has the Enbgland job, he's the only willing one out of a bad bunch).

[MiloMinderbinder]

Do I have to answer this? I have to put up with you blowing your own trumpet regularly, why give you more of a reason?!

Yes, you have been spot on about the majority of our signings within the past five or so seasons, well done!

(Except for the full-backs though, you thought Lee was gonna be a good player and you still think BAE is good enough)

I thank you!

Lee was great on his debut and (whisper it) has improved vastly in the past month or so. BAE has all the attributes and none of the help in front of him, a genuine left sided midfiedl player will let you see BAE in his true colours.

Oh and in case you didn't know ZOKORA IS DOGSWANK.

[Ginola's Son]

Oh so much like the scenario last night then, when we had to win. I forget, what happened, did we really go for it last night? enlighten me.


I didnt realize you were comparing with last night

Yes, we obviously should have played like that yest. And I loved Nielsen, the man who brought my single piece of proper relatviely recent footballing joy

[MiloMinderbinder]

I didnt realize you were comparing with last night

Yes, we obviously should have played like that yest. And I loved Nielsen, the man who brought my single piece of proper relatviely recent footballing joy

That's my issue, had to go for it, didn't. Whose to blame? was it the first time? has he learned from this mistakes? Bit of a no brainer isn't it!

Nielsen was terrific for his commitment but was permanently half a yard off the pace and lacked some basic ball skills.

[Ginola's Son]

That's my issue, had to go for it, didn't. Whose to blame? was it the first time? has he learned from this mistakes? Bit of a no brainer isn't it!

Not for me. I take the defeat on the chin and still back Jol.

Nielsen was terrific for his commitment but was permanently half a yard off the pace and lacked some basic ball skills.

I dunno, I truly thought he was a class act. Got some vital goals. Plenty in 98/99. We don't have a freescoring midfielder in our team.

[Spur2003s]

Leave the big man alone !!! Fair enough he has made some dodgy decisions of late but the whole team is learning at the moment inc Jol.... A change of manager will do **** all.. give it time and don't get on his back no good for any1:mad:

[MiloMinderbinder]

Not for me. I take the defeat on the chin and still back Jol.

What about vs. 10 men at Fulham or 10 men vs Everton, or 0-0 with Southend, or perhaps well the list goes on. Once is bad luck, twice is carelessness anymore is sheer bad manegement

I dunno, I truly thought he was a class act. Got some vital goals. Plenty in 98/99. We don't have a freescoring midfielder in our team.

He was a decent player but that's about it. This is our problem, we shouldn't aspire to decent players we should want and demand great players, either bought or produced, being happy with a player of Nielsen's calibre is for Fulham or some such other irrelevance.

[Ginola's Son]

What about vs. 10 men at Fulham or 10 men vs Everton, or 0-0 with Southend, or perhaps well the list goes on. Once is bad luck, twice is carelessness anymore is sheer bad manegement

I STILL take the defeats on the chin and back Jol. Because we are still winning some games and getting involved in all the competitions

He was a decent player but that's about it. This is our problem, we shouldn't aspire to decent players we should want and demand great players, either bought or produced, being happy with a player of Nielsen's calibre is for Fulham or some such other irrelevance.

We don't have the funds to demand these players.

[spurs61]

We don't have the funds to demand these players.

£11 million on Rebrov

£10.9 million on Berbatov

£8 million plus on Richards

£8 miilion plus on Zokora

£7 million on Keane

£7 million on Defoe

£7 million on Jenas

£6.5 million on Postiga

£6 million on Ferdinand.

Need I continue?

[MiloMinderbinder]

£11 million on Rebrov

£10.9 million on Berbatov

£8 million plus on Richards

£8 miilion plus on Zokora

£7 million on Keane

£7 million on Defoe

£7 million on Jenas

£6.5 million on Postiga

£6 million on Ferdinand.

Need I continue?

oh can I play? Try adding up the amount spent on the team last night, I think you'll find 95% of clubs in the world would love to have that kind of money to spend on a squad.

Robbo - 1.5mil, Chimbo - 6.5 mil BAE 2mil (?) Daswon - 4mil, Gardner - 1.5mil Zokora - 8mil (jesus christ someone MUST have taken a bung on that one), Jenas - 7mil, Ghaly -3mil, Malbranque - 3.5mil, Defoe - 7.5 mil, Keane - 7mil Total = £49.5 mil at an average of £4.5 mil per player. But we shouldn't expect a modicum of success of course!

[MiloMinderbinder]

I STILL take the defeats on the chin and back Jol. Because we are still winning some games and getting involved in all the competitions

Ah but lets see if you still feel like that after the next debacle. No Europe this season will leave us high and dry for the forseeable future I am afraid, lets see who backs Jol then.

We don't have the funds to demand these players.

see above.

[SurreySpur]

Oh so much like the scenario last night then, when we had to win. I forget, what happened, did we really go for it last night? enlighten me.

(Allan Nielsen, god every time I see Zokora I keep thinking "hmm Nielsen, but without the commitment")

Yeah, Iversen scored with a looping header from 18yards, Scales scored after a scramble from a corner and nielsen scored one one one. I think Brad friedel was in goal for liverpool, he had a nightmare time at anfield.

[Gino Ginelli]

Blimey, Iversen. Another "should have been"

[MiloMinderbinder]

Yeah, Iversen scored with a looping header from 18yards, Scales scored after a scramble from a corner and nielsen scored one one one. I think Brad friedel was in goal for liverpool, he had a nightmare time at anfield.

I was using this game as a comparison for last nights events.

[suBerb]

Chelsea want Lippi.

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/07/02/01/manual_111554.html&TEAMHD=soccer

[jrio]

There's a story doing the rounds that Marcello Lippi has said that he would love to manage a big club in England, sooner rather than later.


Lippi might have a different idea of what constitutes a big club in England than you or I.

[Spur]

We don't need anyone new.

And although I voted for the top one I meant to vote for the second top one I just didn't bother to read them after I had voted.

[mjbmedia]

lets put it this way, if i made the same mistakes/ errors so many times in my job id not have it so why the **** should be able to get away with the shit we've been watching this season , we havent outplayed anyone in the premier league except the dire at the time Charlton and even then we let them get back to 2-1 at half time and spoilt everyones pie enjoyment.

if he could get some passion and 120% commitment from the players then great but his motivational skills dont seem up to much and those that were dropped by him last season did say that if your face dont fit he can be a bit of a dickhead , well there aint many faces fitting this season i guess and MJs is getting grumpier by the game

[spurs4ever]

There's a story doing the rounds that Marcello Lippi has said that he would love to manage a big club in England, sooner rather than later.


I think the clue is in the phrase `big club`

Why would he want to take on a team that cannot raise itself against the local rivals B team?

And you really think he will turn Lennon/Keano into great players ... Ok maybe Lennon..

Nah... as frustrating as it can be Jol deserves at least another season...

[Spur]

we havent outplayed anyone in the premier league except the dire at the time Charlton and even then we let them get back to 2-1 at half time and spoilt everyones pie enjoyment.

That first bit is a massive understatment if ever there was one. Did we not outplay Newcastle?

His motivational doesn't seem upto scratch? Again I have to point to the fact we won 15 games last season where we were behind. Again we've done it a good few times this season.

[Ginola's Son]

£11 million on Rebrov

£10.9 million on Berbatov

£8 million plus on Richards

£8 miilion plus on Zokora

£7 million on Keane

£7 million on Defoe

£7 million on Jenas

£6.5 million on Postiga

£6 million on Ferdinand.

Need I continue?

Nope you can stop there

Now look at the prices Chelsea and United pay out to get their men....

[Shuggie13]

Nope you can stop there

Now look at the prices Chelsea and United pay out to get their men....

No doubt. And didn't kingkeane say somewhere else our that the average price paid out for our 1st team was 4.5mil per player on Wednesday, and that we should expect more return. United have spent £60 mil on just Ferdinand & Rooney! Carrick cost effectively 4 of our starting line-up. Liverpool have spent silly money, their only saving grace is that their two consistent/consistent players are Gerrard & Carragher that cost not a penny. The Scum are the only relatively frugal spenders. Lord knows what Bolton pays out in wages. West Ham have spent 10 mil on Davenport & Upson and they are still going to get relegated! Let's not even start with Newcastle.

[singapore spur]

for what its worth i voted to give jol more time , if we were in danger of relegation then maybe we should look at a change but we are not
, as it is any calls for his head at this stge of the season are ridiculous , it would achieve nothing apart from unsettling the team . as it is we could well end up at the end of the season with the uefa cup , a good fa cup run , and a semi-final in the worthless cup . ok it lookslike another frustrating mediocre league finish unless we really turn it on , but i think if we picked up a cup we would be happy in what is still early times for him , and a lot of our players .

ok if we crash out of the cups , and end up mid table we will have to look at the reasons why, and jol's solo role would quite rightly be looked at but not now ffs . even if we didnt progress any further in cups n league i would be happy for him to have worked on stuff in the summer , and start next season as boss .

[Ginola's Son]

He will not get sacked this season, no way, because when you look at it, it hasn't been to bad. We're top half in with a shout for UEFA cup places, in the last 16 of the UEFA Cup, Round 5 of the FA Cup and were semi finalists in the Carling Cup losing to a VERY talented team that most would lose to. Including the mighty Liverpool who were humbled by them SIX-THREE!

It comes to something when the biggest thing we can moan about is a 3-0 defeat to Reading.

[Welsh Spur]

West Ham have spent 10 mil on Davenport & Upson.

That's astonishing. Absolutely crazy. I'd sack Curbs just for that! :p

[spurs61]

losing to a VERY talented team that most would lose to. Including the mighty Liverpool who were humbled by them SIX-THREE!

It comes to something when the biggest thing we can moan about is a 3-0 defeat to Reading.

It was Liverpool's reserve/youth team! Convieniently forgotten by the Spurs faithful.

The 3-0 defeat may have been the most humiliating (wasn't it 3-1?) but the l;ist of poor performances and crass tactical errors have been growing on a monthly basis.

I'm also concerned about what I perceive to be a lack of professionalism. As three examples from this week alone;

a) Jol spent the whole of last week talking up Lennon and how important he is to the side. Except the way Jol was talking, it sounded as though Lennon was our only hope of winning; once we discovered Lennon wasn't fit for Wednesday all hope went out of the window, the goons were handed a huge psychological advantage.

b) even if Jol truly does believe that the first leg was the players fault (or the recent debacle against Newcastle) then fine; part of his role is to protect the players and take responsibility on their behalf. It's a fairly young team who's confidence in themselves and their manager cannot be helped by a perceived lack of support from their own manager.

c) Knowing full well that Berbatov was injured for the second leg, why did the club spend the whole week publically trying to get rid of Mido?

[Ginola's Son]

Great great points. And the PR of the club is to blame. Jol identified Lennon as his big player, just like Gooners rate Henry and Man U with Ronaldo. Everyone has their star player.

As for Liverpool, I remember seeing a great deal of seniors out there.

[spurs61]

Great great points. And the PR of the club is to blame. Jol identified Lennon as his big player, just like Gooners rate Henry and Man U with Ronaldo. Everyone has their star player.

As for Liverpool, I remember seeing a great deal of seniors out there.

Yes, but do you think Wenger and Ferguson would spend a week before a second leg cup tie talking up the player and saying how vital he is to the team? Quite the opposite; when Henry is injured or not in form, Wenger says they're not a one man team and can cope without him, ditto Ferguson with Rooney or Ronaldo.

Liverpool played three regular first team players, Hypia, Gerrard, Bellamy. We played the strongest team we could field.....

[MiloMinderbinder]

I'm also concerned about what I perceive to be a lack of professionalism. As three examples from this week alone;

a) Jol spent the whole of last week talking up Lennon and how important he is to the side. Except the way Jol was talking, it sounded as though Lennon was our only hope of winning; once we discovered Lennon wasn't fit for Wednesday all hope went out of the window, the goons were handed a huge psychological advantage.


Lack of professionalism, how can you say that, I mean Big Mart got 5 subs on to the team sheet....oh wait hold on....

For me more a point is that we all know that without Lennon we lack a cutting edge (we are reliant on a 19 year old people, that alone ought to speak volumes), this has been acknowledged by Jol for some time (even though it's entirely his fault) ad yet did he have the foresight to recall Routledge during the window? no he did not, a very bad basic error, what would we do if heaven forbid Lennon gets a bad injury?

[MiloMinderbinder]

No doubt. And didn't kingkeane say somewhere else our that the average price paid out for our 1st team was 4.5mil per player on Wednesday, and that we should expect more return. United have spent £60 mil on just Ferdinand & Rooney! Carrick cost effectively 4 of our starting line-up. Liverpool have spent silly money, their only saving grace is that their two consistent/consistent players are Gerrard & Carragher that cost not a penny. The Scum are the only relatively frugal spenders. Lord knows what Bolton pays out in wages. West Ham have spent 10 mil on Davenport & Upson and they are still going to get relegated! Let's not even start with Newcastle.

Right so you think that an average of £4.5 mil per player is peanuts do you. To take Rooney, Ferdinand and Carrick as counter arguments is ridiculous, all of those players were bought, partly, to prove a point in that Man U can buy who they want, when they want, from whom they want. I should hazard a guess that if you were to average out the cost of the Man U first team, even with the exhorbitant prices paid for some of the players, it would come out as only slightly higher than ours, plus you have to factor in the regular CL football that they have played which gives them purchasing power over and above our own.

Face facts we have spent a reasonable fortune over the last 5 or so years and in reality have jack shit to show for it other than one measily season in Europe - good enough?

In fact try comparing us with Bolton who haven't spent anywhere near what we have and are achieving the same modicum of success, who in case you didn;t know have a wage budget that I would approximate is perhaps 60% of ours.

[spurs61]

Thanks for that KingKeane, so that's five examples of a lack of professionalism in about a week. Brilliant, what a top class manager.

[Ginola's Son]

Liverpool played three regular first team players, Hypia, Gerrard, Bellamy. We played the strongest team we could field.....

Which isn't really that strong. Gerrard alone could probably take on most of our side. Dudek in goal may not be first choice, but not a reserve either. Alonso and Garcia were also used from the bench.

Spurs shoot themselves in the foot by being smug when he haven't won yet. Arsenal and others wait till they do things before they celebrate, we don't.

For instance, in the LC semi in 1987, apparantly at half time or something, the PR announcer talked about tickets for the final!! No wonder the gooners went all out and humiliated us

Then last week, I read that some **** came on the pitch at HT when we were 2 up and said that it was a great time to be a Spurs fan! 45 minutes later, it was clearly NOT a great time to be a spurs fan.

[spurs61]

Which isn't really that strong. Gerrard alone could probably take on most of our side. Dudek in goal may not be first choice, but not a reserve either. Alonso and Garcia were also used from the bench.

That's streching things a bit far even by Gerrards standards. And if a player is not a regular first choice, surely by definition he is a reserve player?
The point is that Liverpool did not field even close to a full strength side but still managed to score three goals (ok they conceded six! :D ). We played a full strength side other than Lennon.

[Spur]

I'm sorry, but all this talk of Routledge needs to stop because he's worse than Ruel Fox. He's shit. I'd rather Radek Cerny on the right wing.

[Spur]

That's streching things a bit far even by Gerrards standards. And if a player is not a regular first choice, surely by definition he is a reserve player?

Do you really believe that in today's rotational world?

[MiloMinderbinder]

I'm sorry, but all this talk of Routledge needs to stop because he's worse than Ruel Fox. He's shit. I'd rather Radek Cerny on the right wing.

thanks for that, what a sensible contribution.

[Spur]

thanks for that, what a sensible contribution.

Tell me i'm wrong...

[MiloMinderbinder]

Tell me i'm wrong...

what that Cerny is a better winger than Routledge?!:confused: OK, I'll tell you what we'll both agree to ignore these past couple of posts, I think it's probably for the best.

[Spur]

what that Cerny is a better winger than Routledge?!:confused: OK, I'll tell you what we'll both agree to ignore these past couple of posts, I think it's probably for the best.

I wasn't actually talking about Cerny being better, just Routledge being not good enough.

Funnily enough most of our team is not good enough to be in the top 4, so how some people expect it then blame the manager is quite comical.

[wayne wonder]

I want Keith Burkinshaw back ASAP!!:)

[Shuggie13]

Right so you think that an average of £4.5 mil per player is peanuts do you. To take Rooney, Ferdinand and Carrick as counter arguments is ridiculous, all of those players were bought, partly, to prove a point in that Man U can buy who they want, when they want, from whom they want. I should hazard a guess that if you were to average out the cost of the Man U first team, even with the exhorbitant prices paid for some of the players, it would come out as only slightly higher than ours, plus you have to factor in the regular CL football that they have played which gives them purchasing power over and above our own.

Face facts we have spent a reasonable fortune over the last 5 or so years and in reality have jack shit to show for it other than one measily season in Europe - good enough?

In fact try comparing us with Bolton who haven't spent anywhere near what we have and are achieving the same modicum of success, who in case you didn;t know have a wage budget that I would approximate is perhaps 60% of ours.

At what point did I say 4.5 mil is peanuts? I am saying if you look at league positions and success compared to those that have achieved it is relevant.
I think 4.5 mil is about right for the postiton we are in at the moment.

I wouldn't hazzard a guess that Man U's first team is slightly higher than 4.5 mil if I was you. Try adding up the prices paid for Ronaldo, Evra, Park, Heinze, Vidic. Thats not even including Saha and Smith. If you can get slightly more than 4.5 I'd be very suprised.

As for Bolton if you want to take their bunch of journeymen over our developing side than so be it. It could be argued that we are investing for the future, when Big Sam finally gets booted for bungs his man-management skills will count for nothing and Bolton will be left with a team of wage earners. Where did you get the figures that their wage bill is 60% less?

[MiloMinderbinder]

I wasn't actually talking about Cerny being better, just Routledge being not good enough.

Funnily enough most of our team is not good enough to be in the top 4, so how some people expect it then blame the manager is quite comical.

How would we know, he's never had a chance in a half decent team.

I wouldn't disagree with you on that point but whose fault is that? The only recent purchase that I have been happy with has been Malbranque (and Chimbo apart from the price) the rest have elicited cries of "who"or "why". this is a guy that 12 months ago bought Rasiak and Murphy - nuff said

[Ginola's Son]

That's streching things a bit far even by Gerrards standards. And if a player is not a regular first choice, surely by definition he is a reserve player?
The point is that Liverpool did not field even close to a full strength side but still managed to score three goals (ok they conceded six! ). We played a full strength side other than Lennon.

It wasn't full strength from us. Berbatov, King and Lennon is first choice.

Dudek I guess is a reserve, fair dues, but he isn't a kid. And nor was Almunia.

[MiloMinderbinder]

At what point did I say 4.5 mil is peanuts? I am saying if you look at league positions and success compared to those that have achieved it is relevant.
I think 4.5 mil is about right for the postiton we are in at the moment.

I wouldn't hazzard a guess that Man U's first team is slightly higher than 4.5 mil if I was you. Try adding up the prices paid for Ronaldo, Evra, Park, Heinze, Vidic. Thats not even including Saha and Smith. If you can get slightly more than 4.5 I'd be very suprised.

As for Bolton if you want to take their bunch of journeymen over our developing side than so be it. It could be argued that we are investing for the future, when Big Sam finally gets booted for bungs his man-management skills will count for nothing and Bolton will be left with a team of wage earners. Where did you get the figures that their wage bill is 60% less?

Park is not a 1st team player, not is Smith nor is Heinze. And an average is worked out cumulatively not by picking the players with the highest price tags, Man U have at least 3 players in their 1st team who are home grown which brings their average down.

Bolton (bolt on) may well have a sqaud of journey men but does that matter if the do the business? Look at the league table over the last 4 years and work it out for yourself who is reaching their level and who is not.

[Shuggie13]

I hear what you are saying kingkeane. Comparing our plights to Bolton, my point is we have invested in the future which of course can be countered that doesn't mean anything if nothing is won in the future.

[MiloMinderbinder]

I hear what you are saying kingkeane. Comparing our plights to Bolton, my point is we have invested in the future which of course can be countered that doesn't mean anything if nothing is won in the future.

Exactly, how long are we going to claim to be "in transiton" and "building for the future"?

I always look at the league table as a gauge of success/progress. At present there are 4 or so teams above us that just should not be given the resources at our disposal, and I am sorry but there can only be one person that can carry the can for that.

[Spur]

How would we know, he's never had a chance in a half decent team.

I wouldn't disagree with you on that point but whose fault is that? The only recent purchase that I have been happy with has been Malbranque (and Chimbo apart from the price) the rest have elicited cries of "who"or "why". this is a guy that 12 months ago bought Rasiak and Murphy - nuff said

Yea he bought in Rasiak but only as a panic buy because our other target (forget who it is) said no. It was done an hour before deadline. As was Murphy, although I have no idea why he was brought in.

The thing is the majoirty of our midfield is not good enough. Zokora - as you should know more than anyone the amount of time you rightly slate him - has proved not good enough when everyone thought he would.

Lennon has been out of the team sooo much with injuries.

Ghaly, Murphy, aren't good enough, maybe good squad players but they are playing too many games.

Jenas is pants. I didn't want to place him next to Ghaly and Murphy's names just because of the price tag we paid for him - this, by the way, was a Levy signing.

Steed and Hudd, they are the only ones coming out with any credit. Put Steed in the middle and he will make those late runs and play the ball early and to the right man when in possesion - two things no-one else does (Jenas was supposed to...). Hudd is a youngster. Inexperience costs him, and hardly the quickest, but his head makes up for it, and he is getting stuck in more now - his passing needs no comment.

Overall, it's just not good enough. We need Lennon every game, we need a left winger purely so we can move Steed in, failing that then we need a new centre mid who is better than Jenas, Ghaly, Murphy at getting the team up, who will score goals and assist and get stuck in - there are players out there like this.

The team isn't good enough. To expect it to finish 4th is laughable. We've seen the strength in depth that Arsenal have and hopefully in time we will be the same. But it doesn't happen overnight. You can't expect it to. When we have the right personnel on the pitch then lay into the manager - who bar one or two things is doing things right. We see how good we play in europe because we are obviously more confident. I'm happy with winning UEFA or FA and finishing 10th. I couldn't give a ****. After that we can move on and up.

But for now the midfield is just too poor. Not good enough going forward, and easy to break down defensively. This is what Jol now has to re-sort out after Carrick left, and if he does overnight then he's a miracle worker. But no-one can do that unless they get lucky. Give him the time he should of earnt not only from last season but from this as well.

[Ginola's Son]

Wow Spur. That could be your best ever post. I agree with it all.

I do think Steed's role needs to be sorted out, he's one talented player.

[Shuggie13]

I got too much time on my hands.....

KingKeane we'd probably agree this has predominately been their 1st team this season.

Van De Sar 2m
Evra 5.5m
Ferdinand 31 mil
Neville - 0
Vidic 7.2 mil
Carrick 18.6 mil
Ronaldo 12.24 mil
Scholes 0
Giggs 0
Rooney 31 mil
Larsson 0

Total just under 108 mil, 9.8 per player. Take out Rooney and Ferdinand 4.2 mil per player.

[Spur]

I got too much time on my hands.....

KingKeane we'd probably agree this has predominately been their 1st team this season.

Van De Sar 2m
Evra 5.5m
Ferdinand 31 mil
Neville - 0
Vidic 7.2 mil
Carrick 18.6 mil
Ronaldo 12.24 mil
Scholes 0
Giggs 0
Rooney 31 mil
Larsson 0

Total just under 108 mil, 9.8 per player. Take out Rooney and Ferdinand 4.2 mil per player.

And i'm ready to stick one out there by saying the rest of their squad (lets say another 11 players) costs roughly the same.

[Shuggie13]

Not far off Spur, Saha was 12.8 mil for starters.

[Spur]

So let's compare this to ours.

Huddlestone 600k
Lennon 1mil
Robbo 1mil

Someone please continue.

[olly27]

Yea he bought in Rasiak but only as a panic buy because our other target (forget who it is) said no. It was done an hour before deadline. As was Murphy, although I have no idea why he was brought in.

The thing is the majoirty of our midfield is not good enough. Zokora - as you should know more than anyone the amount of time you rightly slate him - has proved not good enough when everyone thought he would.

Lennon has been out of the team sooo much with injuries.

Ghaly, Murphy, aren't good enough, maybe good squad players but they are playing too many games.

Jenas is pants. I didn't want to place him next to Ghaly and Murphy's names just because of the price tag we paid for him - this, by the way, was a Levy signing.

Steed and Hudd, they are the only ones coming out with any credit. Put Steed in the middle and he will make those late runs and play the ball early and to the right man when in possesion - two things no-one else does (Jenas was supposed to...). Hudd is a youngster. Inexperience costs him, and hardly the quickest, but his head makes up for it, and he is getting stuck in more now - his passing needs no comment.

Overall, it's just not good enough. We need Lennon every game, we need a left winger purely so we can move Steed in, failing that then we need a new centre mid who is better than Jenas, Ghaly, Murphy at getting the team up, who will score goals and assist and get stuck in - there are players out there like this.

The team isn't good enough. To expect it to finish 4th is laughable. We've seen the strength in depth that Arsenal have and hopefully in time we will be the same. But it doesn't happen overnight. You can't expect it to. When we have the right personnel on the pitch then lay into the manager - who bar one or two things is doing things right. We see how good we play in europe because we are obviously more confident. I'm happy with winning UEFA or FA and finishing 10th. I couldn't give a ****. After that we can move on and up.

But for now the midfield is just too poor. Not good enough going forward, and easy to break down defensively. This is what Jol now has to re-sort out after Carrick left, and if he does overnight then he's a miracle worker. But no-one can do that unless they get lucky. Give him the time he should of earnt not only from last season but from this as well.

Spur I agree with a lot of this..but just to get something clear over what you have been saying lately: in the main are you saying the players arn't good enough? or are you saying they arn't performing? cos if its former...what level of performance do you expect?..furthermore why are we as a club spending money on 'jacks of all trades'..and not acquiring decent targets for more money?..ie..spend more on quality as oppossed to buying several mediocre players who end up suplus to requirements...this policy concerns me...the money spent on several average players restricts us from signing the quality we so badly need in certain areas

[Shuggie13]

Kingkeane worked out Wednesday's starting line up at an average of 4.5 mil. I would argue that the present 1st team is not an excessive amount. Where I would agree is all the money we paid in the past for absolute muppets.

[Shuggie13]

Spur I agree with a lot of this..but just to get something clear over what you have been saying lately: in the main are you saying the players arn't good enough? or are you saying they arn't performing? cos if its former...what level of performance do you expect?..furthermore why are we as a club spending money on 'jacks of all trades'..and not acquiring decent targets for more money?..ie..spend more on quality as oppossed to buying several mediocre players who end up suplus to requirements...this policy concerns me

It is a concern. But wasn't Zokora a specific target? Alnwick I think is a great buy for further development. The fact is unless we offer huge amounts for the likes of the Pedersens like Man U and Chelsea, we will not get them until we start to have something substantial to entice the players.

[Spur]

Spur I agree with a lot of this..but just to get something clear over what you have been saying lately: in the main are you saying the players arn't good enough? or are you saying they arn't performing? cos if its former...what level of performance do you expect?..furthermore why are we as a club spending money on 'jacks of all trades'..and not acquiring decent targets for more money?..ie..spend more on quality as oppossed to buying several mediocre players who end up suplus to requirements...this policy concerns me

I'm saying that alot of the players are not performing, but our midfield evidently is just not good enough. For instance, I would say Zokora is good enough, i've seen it, he does it sometimes, but he isn't performing. Whereas Murphy, Jenas (sadly), and Ghaly are just no good enough.

The thing is, using the trasnfer system you mention we have actually made money on it over the last three years, like with Mendes, with Davis, with Noe, even with Atouba! I don't like the idea of buying one big player a summer, whereas I do like the idea of buying in youth, and like with Lennon and Huddlestone you can come out on top for a tenth, a twentieth of the price. It makes sense no?

If we can converge the two then happy days. We're sorted, but I fear it's maybe not in some people's ideals.

We must remember of course, that Levy is still very young chairman though, he along with the rest of the Club it seems must learn from experience.

[jrio]

I got too much time on my hands.....

KingKeane we'd probably agree this has predominately been their 1st team this season.

Van De Sar 2m
Evra 5.5m
Ferdinand 31 mil
Neville - 0
Vidic 7.2 mil
Carrick 18.6 mil
Ronaldo 12.24 mil
Scholes 0
Giggs 0
Rooney 31 mil
Larsson 0

Total just under 108 mil, 9.8 per player. Take out Rooney and Ferdinand 4.2 mil per player.
You've over-egged it a bit by including conditional fees for Carrick. Omitting that, plus the over-estimate for Rooney by about £4m, would take about £9m off. If KK is bemoaning the money available that has been spent on players in comparison to other clubs, it obscures the money spent per player to include players that developed from within the club, because we're discussing the quality of player that can be obtained for transfer. Larsson also affects the calculation as he is a loan player who could be there for as little as 3 months, as opposed to Saha(£12m). A rough estimate of purchased players who are first teamers gives ManU - £13.5m and Spurs - £5m. A better comparison might be with Liverpool whose budget is closer to ours. Their average per bought-in first teamer is £5.5m.

[Shuggie13]

You've over-egged it a bit by including conditional fees for Carrick. Omitting that, plus the over-estimate for Rooney by about £4m, would take about £9m off. If KK is bemoaning the money available that has been spent on players in comparison to other clubs, it obscures the money spent per player to include players that developed from within the club, because we're discussing the quality of player that can be obtained for transfer. Larsson also affects the calculation as he is a loan player who could be there for as little as 3 months, as opposed to Saha(£12m). A rough estimate of purchased players who are first teamers gives ManU - £13.5m and Spurs - £5m. A better comparison might be with Liverpool whose budget is closer to ours. Their average per bought-in first teamer is £5.5m.

The argument was we should be at a better place for the money spent. I argued that for what we have spent our current situatio is about right. I did mention Liverpool in an earlier post. Scroll back a few pages and you'll see.

[olly27]

I'm saying that alot of the players are not performing, but our midfield evidently is just not good enough. For instance, I would say Zokora is good enough, i've seen it, he does it sometimes, but he isn't performing. Whereas Murphy, Jenas (sadly), and Ghaly are just no good enough.

The thing is, using the trasnfer system you mention we have actually made money on it over the last three years, like with Mendes, with Davis, with Noe, even with Atouba! I don't like the idea of buying one big player a summer, whereas I do like the idea of buying in youth, and like with Lennon and Huddlestone you can come out on top for a tenth, a twentieth of the price. It makes sense no?

If we can converge the two then happy days. We're sorted, but I fear it's maybe not in some people's ideals.

We must remember of course, that Levy is still very young chairman though, he along with the rest of the Club it seems must learn from experience.


yeah your spot on when you say 'if we could converge the two' - that would be happy days...I understand completely what your saying :) one thing though I think Ghaly could improve...he' very raw but just shows glimpses of quality...anyway...on the whole am in agreement with you..:)

[MiloMinderbinder]

The argument was we should be at a better place for the money spent. I argued that for what we have spent our current situatio is about right. I did mention Liverpool in an earlier post. Scroll back a few pages and you'll see.

Yeah, the Liverpool comaprison is reasonable, but you would also have to factor in the same for Bolton (bolt on), Pompey, Villa etc, i.e. the sides that we are around in the league.

As for Man U, I had previously stated that the prices paid for 3 or 4 of the 1st team were artificially inflated by buying players from traditional rival, e.g. if we were to sell Lennon to the Arse we would probably demand significantly more than were we to sell him to Man U.

[Shuggie13]

Yeah, the Liverpool comaprison is reasonable, but you would also have to factor in the same for Bolton (bolt on), Pompey, Villa etc, i.e. the sides that we are around in the league.

As for Man U, I had previously stated that the prices paid for 3 or 4 of the 1st team were artificially inflated by buying players from traditional rival, e.g. if we were to sell Lennon to the Arse we would probably demand significantly more than were we to sell him to Man U.

I reckon out of Pompey, Bolton & Villa next season only Villa will improve. Arthur Daley Redknapp has proved in the past he can go from one season of brilliance to relegation fighting the next. Forgetting the current situation I still maintain we will be in a better place in 2 seasons than Bolton.

[spurs61]

I want Keith Burkinshaw back ASAP!!:)

Worst desicion ever made by the club, his sacking spelt the end of Spurs as a serious club. In the words of the great man himself;

"There used to be a football club here." :( :( :(

[spurs61]

Do you really believe that in today's rotational world?

If we were Man U or Chelsea? Definately. But we're not, rotation is not a policy which we should be adopting. If we truly want to progress the best ploy is to stick with a tried and tested first eleven and only make forced alterations or when play vastly inferior teams. How are the players supposed get an understanding of each other if they don't know who they will be playing next to from one game to the next? Can anyone tell me what the first choice central midfield pairing is?

[Shuggie13]

If we were Man U or Chelsea? Definately. But we're not, rotation is a policy which we should be adopting. If we truly want to progress the best ploy is to stick with a tried and tested first eleven and only make forced alterations or when play vastly inferior teams. How are the players supposed get an understanding of each other if they don't know who they will be playing next to from one game to the next? Can anyone tell me what the first choice central midfield pairing is?

No, and I'm not sure Jol knows either. It's a worry isn't it?

[Spur]

Can anyone tell me what the first choice central midfield pairing is?

Why is that though?

Could it be that they are all playing shit...?

I thank you.

[MiloMinderbinder]

Why is that though?

Could it be that they are all playing shit...?

I thank you.

Have you not noticed that whosoever plays in the central midfield roles seem to play within approx. 5 yards of each other. They don't have one holding one going, or even one holding one closing, there is no real shape to the central mid other than one, flat, this is where a massive amount of problems lie. How can the central midfield support or supply the talent that we have further up the pitch when they are utterly shackled by instructions.

That is not the players fault it's the manager exhibiting a negative and wholly unimaginative ploy.

[spurs61]

Why is that though?

Could it be that they are all playing shit...?

I thank you.


No, it's because Jol has not played the same pairing from one game to the next, primarily because he hasn't got a scooby what the best pairing is. Ergo the players play like shite due to the fact that there is no understanding between them. The same goes for the strikers. The only time Jol has kept the same strike pairing this season we actually scored some goals.

I thank you...

[Spur]

No, it's because Jol has not played the same pairing from one game to the next, primarily because he hasn't got a scooby what the best pairing is. Ergo the players play like shite due to the fact that there is no understanding between them. The same goes for the strikers. The only time Jol has kept the same strike pairing this season we actually scored some goals.

I thank you...

He has played the same pairing. I can name several that we've seen more than once or twice this season. The only thing is we had to move Jenas out of position this season for a whole length of time, otherwise that would be one more. And there should be understanding between them seeing as they are with each otehr every day in training.

I'm not disputing the strike force, it's something that both Jermain (today as well) and Keane both say, as well as Mido, but Berba hasn't because he's too profesh. But here we are talking about the midfield. And all our midfielders thus far have been playing shit - not because of the management but because of themselves. Look at when Steed moves into the middle - we look ten times better for the 20 mins a game when he does it. That's because Steed is playing well, because he's playing his own game maybe - but it makes the whole team look better. Do you dispute that?

[Ginola's Son]

You can't actually say what the first choice midfield pairing is when you have players vying for a place in the side. That's hardly man-management is it

From my point of view, its Hudd and Jenas - When Jenas is in the mood.

[MiloMinderbinder]

And all our midfielders thus far have been playing shit - not because of the management but because of themselves. Look at when Steed moves into the middle - we look ten times better for the 20 mins a game when he does it. That's because Steed is playing well, because he's playing his own game maybe - but it makes the whole team look better. Do you dispute that?

Please read my post above and apply to your comments.

[Spur]

That is not the players fault it's the manager exhibiting a negative and wholly unimaginative ploy.

Were it for 90 minutes week in week out i'd obviously agree. But it's not. That's what all this is about. Sometimes we play gerat football, when we go one up we do so playing great football. Once we are one up the players collapse. They hang back for some reason, the opposition start bossing the game, start to play football themselves.

As said before saying this is the managers fault would be an attack on his common sense. If your happy to do so then fine, but I don't believe that for a minute. There is not one manager in the world who would content themselves to sit on a one goal lead. I doubt many would do two goal lead either.

The fact is when Jol brings on an extra defender with two minutes to go that's not being negative. That's him being realistic as he can see that the only team looking likely to score is the opposition. You can put it down to inexperience, you can put it down to a number of things, but for me all those are to do with the players themselves not the manager.

Jol obviously knows these things because week in, week out he comes out after the game and tells the world. I'm quite positive if a manager knows his teams failings and is willing to say them out loud behind the scenes he is undoubtedly working on them. Again, not to do so, and to claim he is not doing so goes against common sense.

I'll use it again. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[spurs61]

When Steed cuts inside we have a massive hole down the left flank as was evident of Wednesday, I'm not happy about it at all, a better player than Wallflower would have punished us severely. I'd love to play Steed behind the front two with a proper holding player but we can;t for two reasons; firstly Steed is the only player we have who's comfortable on the left (Jol's fault!) and secondly you can't rely on Steed to track back which is essential in the Premiership if you play central midfield.

I would be grateful if you would name these games when Jol has played the same pairing for lets say three games in a row? The fact that Jenas and Zokora (as an example) have played together five or six times does not count, I'm talking about back-to-back games. I haven't looked at the team sheets but I'm fairly sure the facts will prove me right.

[jrio]

I did mention Liverpool in an earlier post. Scroll back a few pages and you'll see.
If you're referring to them spending "silly money" I did see that but it's inaccurate. Houllier did but Benitez's buys, Pennant apart(even he scored a key goal against Chelsea and is starting to perform well), have been on the frugal side, The most expensive is Alonso at £10m.

[Ginola's Son]

Wallflower

I think Fabre**** is a good'un

[Spur]

I would be grateful if you would name these games when Jol has played the same pairing for lets say three games in a row? The fact that Jenas and Zokora (as an example) have played together five or six times does not count, I'm talking about back-to-back games. I haven't looked at the team sheets but I'm fairly sure the facts will prove me right.

No ok, you may be right with that after sticking in the added rules, but how much of that has to do with injuries, you have to remember that Jenas has played a large part of the season on the right, Ghaly too. Murphy on the left.

I feel Huddlestone is a perfect example of our midfield performances because how good was he when we had won 12 out of his 15 games, now how good is he? He's playing rubbish, just like the rest of the midfield bar Steed. The last few games he's deserved to be dropped, as does the rest of the midfield bar Steed. Is the most perfect example, he was sterling before - now he isn't. Who's fault is that? Have Jol's tactics over the last 5 games meant he's turned shit? Have they ****. We've played the same way week in week out all season, for the past two season's even.

[spurs61]

OK, I should have been more articulate in my definition. Have you seen this though, why couldn't this have been published an hour ago, it would have saved me typing! (taken from interview with Defoe this afternoon);

Defoe believes that his return to form is primarily down to the fact he is now regularly starting games, with his blossoming partnership alongside Dimitar Berbatov bearing impressive fruit.
"I've always said I need a run in the team, not just two games or three games," he added. "You can't get a rhythm or feel sharp unless you get a run in the team.
"But this season there's been one or two injuries and I've had to play the games and I've really enjoyed it. I feel really fit at the minute. I've got a rhythm and it's really important, especially as a forward.

He he, see even Jermain agrees with me!

[Ginola's Son]

But this is all so obvious, of course a footy player is going to want to play in every match, I don't see the point that is being made, I need a picture drawn.

[MiloMinderbinder]

Were it for 90 minutes week in week out i'd obviously agree. But it's not. That's what all this is about. Sometimes we play gerat football, when we go one up we do so playing great football. Once we are one up the players collapse. They hang back for some reason, the opposition start bossing the game, start to play football themselves.

As said before saying this is the managers fault would be an attack on his common sense. If your happy to do so then fine, but I don't believe that for a minute. There is not one manager in the world who would content themselves to sit on a one goal lead. I doubt many would do two goal lead either.

The fact is when Jol brings on an extra defender with two minutes to go that's not being negative. That's him being realistic as he can see that the only team looking likely to score is the opposition. You can put it down to inexperience, you can put it down to a number of things, but for me all those are to do with the players themselves not the manager.

Jol obviously knows these things because week in, week out he comes out after the game and tells the world. I'm quite positive if a manager knows his teams failings and is willing to say them out loud behind the scenes he is undoubtedly working on them. Again, not to do so, and to claim he is not doing so goes against common sense.

I'll use it again. Rome wasn't built in a day.

no, this is not what happens, trust me I do go to the games after all. We may play well/prettily in 20 mins or so of a game, and usually get a goal or two, but as soon as we have a lead we sit on it, this is fact it's not opinion, ask anyone who goes to the games and has a sembelance of an understanding of the game. We offer the opposition on to us and are then swamped when they do. This has absoutely **** all to do with the players, they play to preset instructions as to what to do in certain scenarios.

Jol has not learned that every single side in the league (bar Watford) are capable of turning a game on it's head, he is obsessed with the idea of "closing a game out" when we should, in reality "kill the game off", either by scoring another (much simpiler to do when the oppo are chasing the game) or by keeping possesion.

So unfortunately I am lead to the inescapable conclusion that Mr Jol is either lacking in common sense or more likely is arrogant to the point of conceit in that he's right and the world and his wife who have identiifed issues in the side are wrong, my god even Andy "I'm a complete muppet" Grey has worked out we are negative.

[Spur]

OK, I should have been more articulate in my definition. Have you seen this though, why couldn't this have been published an hour ago, it would have saved me typing! (taken from interview with Defoe this afternoon);

I did state in a reply that Jermain had even said it today. Like I say I agree re: the strikers. I feel midfielders are rather more independent though. For instance, place Barton in with Huddlestone for a game and they will work perfectly. No need for a run or nowt.

[spurs61]

I feel Huddlestone is a perfect example of our midfield performances because how good was he when we had won 12 out of his 15 games, now how good is he? He's playing rubbish, just like the rest of the midfield bar Steed. The last few games he's deserved to be dropped, as does the rest of the midfield bar Steed. Is the most perfect example, he was sterling before - now he isn't. Who's fault is that? Have Jol's tactics over the last 5 games meant he's turned shit? Have they ****. We've played the same way week in week out all season, for the past two season's even.


Tom is a very interesting issue. I can't possibly blame Jol for Tom's dip in form (well, it could be down to lack of confidence from being played off the park?). I genuinley feel that Tom came in and showed how talented he is, other players gave him a lot of room because he's enourmous and very talented. The opposition seem to have figured out that Tom's lack of mobility means that he can be closed down very easily and can also be shrugged off easily, one drop of the shoulder means that Tom is left trailing in his opponents wake. Worrying to say the least.

[Spur]

Tom is a very interesting issue. I can't possibly blame Jol for Tom's dip in form (well, it could be down to lack of confidence from being played off the park?). I genuinley feel that Tom came in and showed how talented he is, other players gave him a lot of room because he's enourmous and very talented. The opposition seem to have figured out that Tom's lack of mobility means that he can be closed down very easily and can also be shrugged off easily, one drop of the shoulder means that Tom is left trailing in his opponents wake. Worrying to say the least.

Tom is like Carrick though - Ledley does it too. One dip of his own shoulder and he's made 5 yards of space for himself. This is what Ricardo Moniz goes through with the players, and it does work because even Michael Dawson is getting good at it.

[jrio]

We may play well/prettily in 20 mins or so of a game, and usually get a goal or two, but as soon as we have a lead we sit on it,


This is primarily a tactic in away games and the last 20 minutes of home games if we're only one goal ahead. A recurring problem is our inability to create clear chances and convert a significant proportion of the chances we do create.

[olly27]

no, this is not what happens, trust me I do go to the games after all. We may play well/prettily in 20 mins or so of a game, and usually get a goal or two, but as soon as we have a lead we sit on it, this is fact it's not opinion, ask anyone who goes to the games and has a sembelance of an understanding of the game. We offer the opposition on to us and are then swamped when they do. This has absoutely **** all to do with the players, they play to preset instructions as to what to do in certain scenarios.

Jol has not learned that every single side in the league (bar Watford) are capable of turning a game on it's head, he is obsessed with the idea of "closing a game out" when we should, in reality "kill the game off", either by scoring another (much simpiler to do when the oppo are chasing the game) or by keeping possesion.

So unfortunately I am lead to the inescapable conclusion that Mr Jol is either lacking in common sense or more likely is arrogant to the point of conceit in that he's right and the world and his wife who have identiifed issues in the side are wrong, my god even Andy "I'm a complete muppet" Grey has worked out we are negative.


it is a fact that we sit on leads..WE ARE NOT RUTHLESS..against arsenal they didn't even need to score a third against us and they went for it...would we of done that..I doubt it...but then again a manager will try and win a game whatever way he sees fit...you see if we could hold the ball better..pass and move better...we would make life a lot easier for oursleves...as obvious as it seems..

KingKeane..absolutely spot on...when you say he tries to close games out as oppossed to killing them off...well put mate

[Spur]

This is primarily a tactic in away games and the last 20 minutes of home games if we're only one goal ahead. A recurring problem is our inability to create clear chances and convert a significant proportion of the chances we do create.

This is the main problem. If we took a decent amount (let's say top 10 amount) of the chances we create then we'd be cruising. We're not. You look no further than those missing the chances created for people to blame.

If we miss a hat-trick of chances with 20 minutes left the other team will eventually take the initiative. What we can only do then is protect the lead we have because of the teams failure to convert opportunities to goals.

[olly27]

This is the main problem. If we took a decent amount (let's say top 10 amount) of the chances we create then we'd be cruising. We're not. You look no further than those missing the chances created for people to blame.

If we miss a hat-trick of chances with 20 minutes left the other team will eventually take the initiative. What we can only do then is protect the lead we have because of the teams failure to convert opportunities to goals.

it seems mate you should be asking for a whole new sqaud come the next window..from the midfield to the strikers...;)

against the better sides we concede too much possession..unforced errors..lumping the ball upfield..cos we cant build approach play from the back filtering through the midfield...if the opposition have a lot more of the ball it kinda reduces the amount of good chances we can create..ala the scum...the fewer we create the less likely we are to score..

[Spur]

it seems mate you should be asking for a whole new sqaud come the next window..from the midfield to the strikers...;)

against the better sides we concede too much possession..unforced errors..lumping the ball upfield..cos we cant build approach play from the back filtering through the midfield...if the opposition have a lot more of the ball it kinda reduces the amount of good chances we can create..ala the scum...the fewer we create the less likely we are to score..

That's not what i'm getting at. Look at Newcastle first 20 minutes we had 10 chances to score, but you would have said we should have been 3-0 up no? I did. Against any side our midfield rarely dictates play as it did that day - when Steed had a blinder may I add.

What i'm asking for is people to start taking their chances up the pitch and for the midfield to start bossing games like they should. For Zokora to start and keep doing those driving runs, for Jenas to start doing anything, for everyone to get stuck in and be decent gonig forward.

There's nothing wrong with the defence, I have full faith in them, except maybe the left back whoever it may be.

[Spur]

no, this is not what happens, trust me I do go to the games after all. We may play well/prettily in 20 mins or so of a game, and usually get a goal or two, but as soon as we have a lead we sit on it, this is fact it's not opinion, ask anyone who goes to the games and has a sembelance of an understanding of the game. We offer the opposition on to us and are then swamped when they do. This has absoutely **** all to do with the players, they play to preset instructions as to what to do in certain scenarios.

So you use it against me that I don't go to every game that's ok. But I have been to at least 10 games this season against all manner of opposition, if i've not been there i've watched them on tv or online. And you seem to say I don't have a sembelance of an understanding of the game, well that's just wrong. But thanks nevertheless.

It's your opinion that the players are told to sit on a one goal lead. From my point of view they do not. It is generally the other team bullying ours into this defensive and deep lying trait. We need players who can get out of it which we don't have. Against Arsenal did you see Jenas or Zokora run the ball out of midfield consistenly? NO they just gave it straight back, or back it to Defoe or Keane and then there was no-one else to pass to other than Steed making a run in the middle.

[olly27]

That's not what i'm getting at. Look at Newcastle first 20 minutes we had 10 chances to score, but you would have said we should have been 3-0 up no? I did. Against any side our midfield rarely dictates play as it did that day - when Steed had a blinder may I add.

What i'm asking for is people to start taking their chances up the pitch and for the midfield to start bossing games like they should. For Zokora to start and keep doing those driving runs, for Jenas to start doing anything, for everyone to get stuck in and be decent gonig forward.

There's nothing wrong with the defence, I have full faith in them, except maybe the left back whoever it may be.

yes i totaly agree...am just pointing out that when we'r not bossing games in the middle of the park its harder to get hold of ball and consequently construct good approach play which should create more chances...yes against newcastle we should definitely of taken more chances...that was down to finishing in that game cos we dominated in every possible way...but that hasn't been the reality in a lot of other games..

[jrio]

10 chances in the first 20 mins against Toon is a wild exaggeration but we should have been 2-0 ahead.

It's your opinion that the players are told to sit on a one goal lead. From my point of view they do not. It is generally the other team bullying ours into this defensive and deep lying trait. We need players who can get out of it which we don't have.
I've been at 8 games this season and seen nearly all the rest on-line or Sky. Quite often we've been forced back and there's been no commanding figure to force us forward in possession. A lot of hacking the ball away and drifting back to the edge of the penalty area. Nearly all the goals have been conceded from set-pieces or 20+ yard shots, not from getting behind us or picking a way through the centre.

[Spur]

10 chances in the first 20 mins against Toon is a wild exaggeration but we should have been 2-0 ahead.

I've been at 8 games this season and seen nearly all the rest on-line or Sky. Quite often we've been forced back and there's been no commanding figure to force us forward in possession. A lot of hacking the ball away and drifting back to the edge of the penalty area. Nearly all the goals have been conceded from set-pieces or 20+ yard shots, not from getting behind us or picking a way through the centre.

Absolutely. The defence in my opinion has done outstandingly well this season. As they did last. The full backs are still getting involved to the point were they are generally our best players (Chimbo at least - possibly not the lefty two, although Benny did play very well against the Scum).

[choda]

10 chances in the first 20 mins against Toon is a wild exaggeration but we should have been 2-0 ahead.

I've been at 8 games this season and seen nearly all the rest on-line or Sky. Quite often we've been forced back and there's been no commanding figure to force us forward in possession. A lot of hacking the ball away and drifting back to the edge of the penalty area. Nearly all the goals have been conceded from set-pieces or 20+ yard shots, not from getting behind us or picking a way through the centre.

Exactly. Great point.

Central midfield is being walsed through by other teams. I'd like them to buy Barton for this. 5.5 million is a bargain and I think this lad has Roy Keane type determination to succeed, even if he doesn't have quite the same ability.

[Shuggie13]

Seconded, Barton or Nolan who I was shouting for at the beginning of the season and pretty much told here 'we don't need another midfielder'. If things continue as they are Zokora's money could've been more wisely spent on either of those two.

[choda]

Seconded, Barton or Nolan who I was shouting for at the beginning of the season and pretty much told here 'we don't need another midfielder'. If things continue as they are Zokora's money could've been more wisely spent on either of those two.

Well it wasn't then, but since the malaria Zokora's been rubbish, not fit. He looked the man before that.

[Spur]

Yea, back at the start of the season we had enough players for two teams. Since then they have shown - or re-shown - that alot of them are not good enough. Zokora perhaps being one.