Match Thread: Bayer Leverkusen vs Spurs

[Neil_Vaughan]

Talk about the game in here before, during and after the match.

[suBerb]

Bayer have good players but a terrible coaching stuff. They have 12-13 internationals (among them 2 Brasilians) from which 9 took part in the World Cup in Germany. 5-6 of them were regular strarters in the team that finished first in a CL group with Real and Roma two seasons ago. They were particularly strong at home where they crushed Real with Zidane, Ronaldo and all other stars with 3:0, Dinamo Kiev 3:0, and Roma - 3:1. They were good away too, two 1:1 draws in Madrid and Rom due to goals of Berby. However, they have now a very poor manager who is going to ruin the team. We can beat them.

[bocayid]

shame its not on the tele....thank you new head of programming a t 5

[Welsh Spur]

I reckon we shut em out and steal a goal. I'm hopin for a performance like we saw in Turkey. At times this season we've looked a top, top team but it's been few and far between. We need these performances every game. We have a big enough squad.

[Spur]

If Chimbo plays we'll keep a clean sheet. If not we won't and I don't think he will be risked if its 50/50.

[JJ]

Berbatov is gonna have a blinder. He's better in Europe, and it's against his old club.

[Spur]

Team news on site.

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/articles/teamnews221106.html

And by the sounds of it the reserves went out after their victory...

Martin added: "Davenport looked fine for the reserves, Stalteri is not fit yet and still in London, JJ might have a chance for Wigan on Sunday and Tainio is back in the squad after scoring two gals for the reserves."

And Teemu pulled a couple of lasses meaning he is on top form!

[jrio]

I don't expect Lennon to start nor Chimbonda unless Jol decides to go for an all-out assault that puts us in control of the game so they can be subbed early in the second half. That would give us the great advantage of only requiring a draw at home to Bucharest to top the group in our last game at a time when we then have to face City and Newcastle away around Southend at home in 7 days.

[jrio]

Some major surprises in the line-up. Chimbonda and Lennon start as I thought if we are going all-out to win the game(despite Jol's assertion on SSN that he'd happily take a point). But so do Tainio and Malbranque. The latter is a major surprise because he was hardly in the game on Sunday and just doesn't look fit, but does it mean Tainio on the left and Mal in the middle? Keane and Berbatov up front as expected but Davids and Murphy not even on the bench which is Lee, Davenport, Ghaly, Huddlestone, Defoe and Mido with Cerny.

[Spur]

It's the perfect line-up. I'm not joking - It's perfect. I actually jumped up and down when I saw it.

[Ioang]

Yeah I was about to say - This is the line up we all dreamed of isnt it? At least somewhere close. Tons of natural width with Steed on the left and Lennon on the right, Our two best strikers up front, formidible defence. Tainio I guess is exchangeable for whoever (JJ), but nice to see him back and he has an eye to go forward which is what I'd rather than Zokora and Huddlestone sitting back. Zokora should be allowed to play his natural game.

Nice lineup.

[LEEBOYSPUR]

punchy line-up...particularly Malbranque and Tainio, both short of match fitness...is Jenas on the bench?

[Spur]

I think we will see Teemu and Steed roam around a bit interchangeable sort of thing. Throw Lennon in to that as well our whole Midfield is pretty much interchangeable playing these four. With Keane dropping off expect alot of space to open up up front with Steed, Teemu and Lennon getting into it.

I'm extremely excited about this game now.

[mjbmedia]

cracking atmosphere , were doing good

[Spur]

cracking atmosphere , were doing good

All i'm hearing is yids sing.

Not alot from German commentators at all - our own could learn a thing or two.

[mjbmedia]

i prefeer it(footy) with foreign or no commentary to be honest Berbs gonna break the offside soon if keane plays it early enuf

[mjbmedia]

yesssss berbs

[nuttyhotspurs]

is it just me or does berby looked distressed?? he did in the reading game and he does 2nyt he doesnt seem happy, even when he scored

[Chewy]

Get in berby!!

[mjbmedia]

Berbs didnt celebrate out of repsect for his old club and fans, foreigners do that a lot and its great

[Spur]

is it just me or does berby looked distressed?? he did in the reading game and he does 2nyt he doesnt seem happy, even when he scored

He doesn't seem interested that much...I think those who follow Berba (suBerb) will tell you this is just his style...?

[proto]

is it just me or does berby looked distressed?? he did in the reading game and he does 2nyt he doesnt seem happy, even when he scored

dunno about Reading but i get the impression hes showing a little old team respect tonight, i don't begrudge that so long as he put the ball in the net :)

[Ioang]

This is how I like spurs to play :)... So Lennon was offside is that why he dawdled so much? Idiot goalkeeper.

[suBerb]

Berbs didnt celebrate out of repsect for his old club and fans, foreigners do that a lot and its great

exactly mate

[Chewy]

I'm just listening on the radio but by the sounds of it, we're getting caught by their offside trap alot.

[Ioang]

Argh, Robinson, Goal kicks can go TOO far you know?!

[Ioang]

What radio station mate? I'm listening to the blackburn watching spurs, its a bit odd...

[nuttyhotspurs]

yea get in!!!! he needs to learn how to stay onside tho

[Chewy]

What radio station mate? I'm listening to the blackburn watching spurs, its a bit odd...

BBC London.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/articles/2005/10/12/live_commentaries_feature.shtml

Im watching boring newcastle.

[DonJolSpurano]

im watching streamed japanese coverage.

we're doing pretty well and our pace and movement upfront is really worrying them. its a few mins behind and ive just gotten a half time alert frm orange.

lennon did well to set up the goal frm a sweet keane past but he needs to learn to release the ball earlier. a few times we've gotten in gud positions and he's held on to the ball too long. malbranque and tainio are doing ok but need to assert themselves more. everyone else is playing pretty well. chimbo looks solid as usual and the back four imperious. robbo hasnt been troubled yet

they are pretty poor though and theres been alot of gamesmanship frm them. they've already had to replace barnetta, berbs replacement this summer, i believe.

this is the link, you'll need to install the software first but then hey presto. click 'livefooty1' tp play game. do it now while its halftime though.

http://www.live-footy.org/thu23.11/Leverkusen_Tottenham.html

[nuttyhotspurs]

Berbs didnt celebrate out of repsect for his old club and fans, foreigners do that a lot and its great

i get that and i agree. its just when hes chasing play and the camera goes on him he looks about as happy as a nun in a brothel

[mjbmedia]

or get it up to date live on flfooty

also yes lennon has delayed but so has keane, why is it noone rarely mentions the wrong things keane does yet Lennon is mentioned

[DonJolSpurano]

or get it up to date live on flfooty

also yes lennon has delayed but so has keane, why is it noone rarely mentions the wrong things keane does yet Lennon is mentioned

that aint free tho, is it?

keane hasnt been as bad as lennon.

[Spur]

that aint free tho, is it?

keane hasnt been as bad as lennon.

Lennon seems a bit lost for some reason...?

And why are they sending two or three players all the time out to deal with Steed and not Aaron?

Alot of space down the right all the time but Lennon isn't making use of it getting past his man. The one time he does and goallissimo!!!

We are doing well, but we can still improve. I just have to say it though, it's ****ing awesome looking across midfield and seeing 4 midfielders.

[nuttyhotspurs]

that aint free tho, is it?

keane hasnt been as bad as lennon.

no but its only £2 a month for every spurs game. it even had the spurs vale carling cup game

[Ioang]

There's something about eastern european players, a sort of politeness; I really respect it. Little things like Berb and Sheva giving the ball directly back to the opposition (actually handing it to them) instead of throwing it awkwardly away from them at free kicks and throw ins. Berbatovs just top class full stop - player, guy, I loved how he talked about the CL final recently!

[Ioang]

no but its only £2 a month for every spurs game. it even had the spurs vale carling cup game

It sounds amazing, and I think i'll relent very soon, but the name totally puts me off. I can only presume the 'free' refers to freedom/liberty (the american dream of streaming hosts...) of and not to cost, but you must agree, its a bit misleading!

[Spur]

It sounds amazing, and I think i'll relent very soon, but the name totally puts me off. I can only presume the 'free' refers to freedom/liberty (the american dream of streaming hosts...) of and not to cost, but you must agree, its a bit misleading!

That's what first put me off but when you read the forums that will make you do it. Everyone is normal just looking for some football or something else.

[Spur]

WHAT A SAVE. Definately indispensible.

[Spur]

WHAT A MISS. Oh my God.

[mjbmedia]

i know lets fecking walk it in shall we :rolleyes:

mind you the cross could and should have been better

[mjbmedia]

ffs keane two easy chances ****ed up and a shit cross to berbs

[Spur]

If anyone knows anyone in the crowd ring them and tell them to give Robbie a shout and tell him he does actually have a left boot and would he mind using it.

That is the side of Robbie Keane we see too much.

[mjbmedia]

does JD actually exist or does MJ hate him?? he plays well on sunday and is subbed, Keanes not doing it tonite yet stays on and JD stays on bench!!!!!

lets be honest we should be 4-1 up now at least

[DonJolSpurano]

i know lets fecking walk it in shall we :rolleyes:

mind you the cross could and should have been better

the cross was perfect, berbs should have made it 2

[DonJolSpurano]

I just have to say it though, it's ****ing awesome looking across midfield and seeing 4 midfielders.

lol as opposed to?

goalkeepers?

[Spur]

As opposed to Jermaine Jenas.

And I think the cross was perfect too. Did it go under his foot or what clip his ankle?!?

Keane has ****ed up many things tonight.

[mjbmedia]

If anyone knows anyone in the crowd ring them and tell them to give Robbie a shout and tell him he does actually have a left boot and would he mind using it.

That is the side of Robbie Keane we see too much.
gotta admit he ****s me off when hes like this, he ****s up loads then gesticulates and moans at others for not passing to him, like hes an example to follow in this one

[Spur]

Will happily take that top spot in he group,

What I will not happily take is missing so many chances...again.

[JJ]

Thats my point about Defoe. He is much more aggressive in the box and will shoot on site. Sometimes we need that.

[mjbmedia]

Thats my point about Defoe. He is much more aggressive in the box and will shoot on site. Sometimes we need that.
amen to that

sorry but the cross wasnt perfect, it was bouncing along instead of being played on the ground , therefore making the scoring much more difficult than it needed to be with a modicum of care on Keanes part. Now ok fair enuf but to then see him openly berating Lennon,Mido,Tainio etc for doing less wrong is what pisses me off. still love them all tho

[hastingsyid]

good performance,proud of the lads,fans again were magnificant,but worried again about our finishing

[mjbmedia]

shall we go for marks out of ten then???

Robbo my god he actually saved some long(ish) shots 6
BAE his best game by far 8
King didnt notice him cos we didnt have to 7
Dawson did notice him cos we had to 7
Chimbo dont you just love this guy 8
Zokora enegised performance 6
Tainio lasted the game and good legs 6
Malbranque Liked what i saw , fitness will bring more 6
Lennon kept the left side of Bayer honest 6
Keane could do better but we love him 5
Berbs didnt seem to want to beat them but he did 6

god thats harsh marking and im not sure that i agree with myself totally

[JJ]

Probably about right though as we didn't really play particularly well going forward. Back 4 held strong as usual, Chimbonda looks to be getting better and better, and Ekotto looked alot more composed tonight.

Zokora's touch was much better tonight and he was moving the ball around alot better.

Tainio, Lennon and Malbranque didn't look fully fit but still put in decent performances.

Berbatov's touch is still fantastic but did seem to lack a touch of urgency.

Keane was doing well finding space etc, but lacked the killer touch. Seemed terrified to use his left.

We didn't look troubled at the back apart from those bloody long range efforts again. Generally looked comfortable but we still need to push to start scoring more and more. We could have quite easily had about 4 tonight.

[Spur]

JJ's got it spot on. Same team again for Wigan please MJ!

[shoot_ffs]

thought we defended resolutely again. was strange offensively, as it seemed like there weren't many chances, but we always seemed to be in on the break. anyone who could find a pass should have had about 5 assists tonight. malbranque was finding some forward runs but we need much more. thought we missed ghaly a little as he keeps the ball well. would have liked to have seen defoe on as he's very good at providing chances. their left back did very well against lennon. wigan will be tough again, they won't be scared of us, so we need more composure.

[choda]

I'm really surprised with how you lot are criticising Keane tonight.

He setup the first goal. He sent a guy for an ice cream and then played lennon in with beautiful pass.

He put Chimbo in for a chance. He laid a goal on a plate for Berb and he missed.

He created two chances for himself and could have then done better but it just didn't happen for him.

Personally I thought he was as good as chelsea tonight. Keano stands up and never hides, things happen when he plays.

Sometimes he misses chance and people get on his back. I don't understand that. He creates so much. His enthusiasm, skill, brain, movement and creativity are different class.

Defoe wouldn't lace his boots.

We should've won four tonight and it was Keano created most of it in case you didn't notice.

Many players don't get stick because they only do one or two thing in a game, they don't really get noticed and they escape criticism. But guys like keane are never hiding and get a lot of undeserved criticism.

He adds so much more to the team than Defoe.

Lennon was the one who didn't have a good game. We'll forgive him because he's usually class and he did start to get going at the end. Malbranque did **** all but he gets almost no stick. Hopefully he'll be fit next week.

Berb missed an absolute sitter created by keane.

I thought Tainio did well tonight. And Zokora looked much fitter. Chimbo was world class again.

[suBerb]

Choda is right that Keano was pretty good and created most of our chances.

Berbs didn't want to score more goals, for he didn't want to humiliate his former teammates and his older club. He's a good footballer and professional. But he's a top bloke as well.

Did you notice how Bayer fans applauded him? He scored the goal vs their team and they were singing his name! And when he was substituted the croud stood up, applauded him and chanted his name. That was really moving. When he moved to Bayer, the same fans thought that he is lazy, disinterested, that his attitude is disgraceful, etc...Now they think he's a legend...

[DonJolSpurano]

As opposed to Jermaine Jenas.

And I think the cross was perfect too. Did it go under his foot or what clip his ankle?!?

Keane has ****ed up many things tonight.

as opposed to JJ :rolleyes:

you knw, you didnt actually have to spell it out, i knew what you where getting at, i just find it pathetic.

berbs just seemed to take his eye off it for a split second and it flicked off his boot. it was worse than the JJ-liverpool miss.

keane may have been guilty for some feck ups tonight but your criticism is unfair. he was involved in everything tonight and was easily our most outstanding player. everything good we did, involved keane, usually coming deep and taking up positions in the various holes leverkusen left.

[DonJolSpurano]

I'm really surprised with how you lot are criticising Keane tonight.

He setup the first goal. He sent a guy for an ice cream and then played lennon in with beautiful pass.

He put Chimbo in for a chance. He laid a goal on a plate for Berb and he missed.

He created two chances for himself and could have then done better but it just didn't happen for him.

Personally I thought he was as good as chelsea tonight. Keano stands up and never hides, things happen when he plays.

Sometimes he misses chance and people get on his back. I don't understand that. He creates so much. His enthusiasm, skill, brain, movement and creativity are different class.

Defoe wouldn't lace his boots.

We should've won four tonight and it was Keano created most of it in case you didn't notice.

Many players don't get stick because they only do one or two thing in a game, they don't really get noticed and they escape criticism. But guys like keane are never hiding and get a lot of undeserved criticism.

He adds so much more to the team than Defoe.

Lennon was the one who didn't have a good game. We'll forgive him because he's usually class and he did start to get going at the end. Malbranque did **** all but he gets almost no stick. Hopefully he'll be fit next week.

Berb missed an absolute sitter created by keane.

I thought Tainio did well tonight. And Zokora looked much fitter. Chimbo was world class again.


im going to agree with you wholeheartedly here.

You see, i can be reasonable

[JJ]

Oh, i dont question the fact that Keane was key to creating chances, but when it comes to taking them he just doesn't seem to want to attempt it. He seemed to be through with space to shoot a good 2 or 3 times and he never even got a shot off.

His teamplay/work ethic are fantastic(to me anyway), and the reason he got such strong backing last season was because he was scoring goals. Now he isn't, and i think he should be. These are the standards he's set for himself.

I wouldn't necessarily take Keane off for Defoe, but i know that Defoe would have worked the keeper alot more.

[Spur]

Oh, i dont question the fact that Keane was key to creating chances, but when it comes to taking them he just doesn't seem to want to attempt it. He seemed to be through with space to shoot a good 2 or 3 times and he never even got a shot off.

This is undeniable. No-one was criticising Keane I don't think, just the fact he couldn't finish his dinner - and he does have games where he misses easy chances alot. Anyone disagree? It's part and parcel with Keane that he seems to miss more chances than he scores, that's maybe why people like Defoe more. And then he moans when someone else ****s up or takes a shot when he's open when he did exactly the same thing 30 seconds before.

[suBerb]

people like Defoe more


Are you sure about that?

[Spur]

as opposed to JJ :rolleyes:

you knw, you didnt actually have to spell it out, i knew what you where getting at, i just find it pathetic.

You may find it pathetic but it's 100% true and you know it. We had 4 midfielders out on the pitch last night and they were all unfit this is 3 of them's first games back for a week/2months/4months and they all done better than he would. Going forward how many chances did we create? I haven't seen us create that many chances this season. Or last. And it was done with Lennon, Steed, Zokora and Teemu.

I'm willing to say that was our best midfield performance of the season except for when we was playing Jenas, Ghaly, Zokora in the middle vs Chelsea.

Just to point out that actually none of them even seemed to have an outstanding performance but it was the way they worked altogether. You won't get that with Jenas.

[Gregzy]

Regardless of anything else, the result has left Martin with a "Joker" game against Bucharest in which to do a bit of experimentation. I think we should attempt a daring 1-4-5 formation, allowing Robbo valuable experience on the flank, Defoe the 90 minutes in goal he's been craving and Lennon the
chance to prove himself at centre back.

:)

[Spur]

Are you sure about that?

Yes, i'm not saying i'm one and I certainly don't mean the whole or majority of our support but, nevertheless, some people like Jermaine Defoe more.

One of my mates thinks Keane does **** all so would prefer to start with Defoe. Then again I don't think he likes Defoe either and he should know about Defoe's misses as he sits behind the goal.

[olly27]

your mates a moron then who knows next to nothing about football!

[MiloMinderbinder]

Yes, i'm not saying i'm one and I certainly don't mean the whole or majority of our support but, nevertheless, some people like Jermaine Defoe more.

One of my mates thinks Keane does **** all so would prefer to start with Defoe. Then again I don't think he likes Defoe either and he should know about Defoe's misses as he sits behind the goal.

Which goal would that be? the one on the 5 a side pitches outside the East stand by the sounds of things.

Keane is a proper footballer in Tottenham mould, Defoe is a a flash in the pan with a very limited game. I remember when Defoe first arrived we were saying the way to stop him is to never let him have sight of goal which was easier said than done, turns out the way to stop him is to stroke his ego until he belives his own hype :(

[mjbmedia]

was most frustrated during the match that Keane esp wasnt finishing his chances and securing the win for us. now weve won it dont matter as much but at the time when the posts were made it did.
also as spur says it riles me when keane does an error and then someone else does it and he has a go at them like they should have passed even tho he didnt earlier. try encouraging them instead, applauding the efforts then advise them if their less experienced and also do the right thing yourself before preaching to others

but end of day i love him as a spurs player just want him on tip top form

[DonJolSpurano]

You may find it pathetic but it's 100% true and you know it. We had 4 midfielders out on the pitch last night and they were all unfit this is 3 of them's first games back for a week/2months/4months and they all done better than he would. Going forward how many chances did we create? I haven't seen us create that many chances this season. Or last. And it was done with Lennon, Steed, Zokora and Teemu.

I'm willing to say that was our best midfield performance of the season except for when we was playing Jenas, Ghaly, Zokora in the middle vs Chelsea.

Just to point out that actually none of them even seemed to have an outstanding performance but it was the way they worked altogether. You won't get that with Jenas.

No, its not true. i thought TT and SM where quite poor and didnt assert themselves on the game enough. id have preferred JJ to TT in the middle as he looked off the pace and didnt compliment the strikers enough.

[JJ]

was most frustrated during the match that Keane esp wasnt finishing his chances and securing the win for us. now weve won it dont matter as much but at the time when the posts were made it did.
also as spur says it riles me when keane does an error and then someone else does it and he has a go at them like they should have passed even tho he didnt earlier. try encouraging them instead, applauding the efforts then advise them if their less experienced and also do the right thing yourself before preaching to others

but end of day i love him as a spurs player just want him on tip top form

Yeah, i see that alot. He tends to try more flamboyant stuff than anyone, and generally fails at it more, but he's the first to jump down someones throat when they make a mistake.

But don't get me wrong, i think he's an awesome player, but considering how many goals he got in the number of games last season, he doesn't seem to be anywhere near that form.

I don't deny that he does have a much bigger impact on the team play than Defoe, but sometimes we don't need our striker to drop short to knock a simple pass, i would rather have him hanging on the last man, giving the midfield a pass to play. Maybe he notices the problem we have in linking the attack and the midfield, so he's trying to fill that gap more to get the football flowing more. I don't know.

[Welsh Spur]

No, its not true. i thought TT and SM where quite poor and didnt assert themselves on the game enough. id have preferred JJ to TT in the middle as he looked off the pace and didnt compliment the strikers enough.

Jol played the exact team i wrote down in work yest, the team I think is our strongest 11. Didnt see the game last night was on a 3 hour drive so the result mads me happy regardless of the performance. I'm a happy man!

[Spur]

No, its not true. i thought TT and SM where quite poor and didnt assert themselves on the game enough. id have preferred JJ to TT in the middle as he looked off the pace and didnt compliment the strikers enough.

He looked off the pace because he's just come back from 2 months out. I mean we can't expect him to be back to his best.

I think Teemu done more yesterday though than Jenas would have.

One of the differences is their attitude. For example, Teemu lost the ball yesterday near the opposition box and ran 60 yards with the player before getting his foot in and winning it back. Even though Jenas can only be commended on his running he wouldn't be doing that. Jenas would force someone else to stand-up for his mistake.

[Spur]

Keane is a proper footballer in Tottenham mould, Defoe is a a flash in the pan with a very limited game. I remember when Defoe first arrived we were saying the way to stop him is to never let him have sight of goal which was easier said than done, turns out the way to stop him is to stroke his ego until he belives his own hype :(

There are alot of people who disagree on the Keane vs Defoe debate. How many times have we had it here?

Personally i'm sitting on the fence with this one, I can see the players inside them both but we don't see either of them enough. If Keane is off form he is off form. Same for Defoe. They don't do things by halves. If their off form their absolute dogshit. If their on form their absolute dynamite.

Defoe will always score more goals for me, not many more but more nonetheless. And Keane will always set more up, that's to be expected though what with dropping back and picking the ball up.

I hate Defoe's attitude to the shirt whilst I love Keanes. Think back to when Sir Bill died that game when he scored - that was emotion as a fan and Keane displayed it. You'd never catch Defoe doing that. Then again he stormed down the tunnel at Brum (good or bad?).

Personally I would love to have a striker who is much more consistent than the both of them, that's why I can't make my mind up and give an answer. That's why I said Keane is replaceable. Just because I like Keane more doesn't neccessarily mean I would want him starting.

I would love for Keane to stay here for the rest of his career. But as a guarenteed starter? I don't think I would be able to cope with hot-cold-hot-cold-cold streaks for that long.

[DonJolSpurano]

He looked off the pace because he's just come back from 2 months out. I mean we can't expect him to be back to his best.

I think Teemu done more yesterday though than Jenas would have.

One of the differences is their attitude. For example, Teemu lost the ball yesterday near the opposition box and ran 60 yards with the player before getting his foot in and winning it back. Even though Jenas can only be commended on his running he wouldn't be doing that. Jenas would force someone else to stand-up for his mistake.

hang on, ive seen JJ do similar things, its a bit unfair to say he wouldnt have tracked back like that.

and i knw TT's been injured but i wouls still prefer a fit JJ in that position over a fit TT.

[Gregzy]

and i knw TT's been injured but i wouls still prefer a fit JJ in that position over a fit TT.

If JJ ever played to his apparent potential then I would be in complete agreement with you. However, Teemo gives it his level best every second he is on the pitch and has a hunger for the ball we have yet to see from Jenas.

[Spur]

If JJ ever played to his apparent potential then I would be in complete agreement with you. However, Teemo gives it his level best every second he is on the pitch and has a hunger for the ball we have yet to see from Jenas.

Very well said.

Look up 'ball watching' in the dictionary and there is a picture of Jenas next to it.

[MiloMinderbinder]

Very well said.

Look up 'ball watching' in the dictionary and there is a picture of Jenas next to it.

I don't think that's fair, if he was ball watching he would have scored at Liverpool :D

I genuinely don't think he's a ball watcher, headless chicken is much more apt.

[RuFuS]

Keane is a proper footballer in Tottenham mould, Defoe is a a flash in the pan with a very limited game. I remember when Defoe first arrived we were saying the way to stop him is to never let him have sight of goal which was easier said than done, turns out the way to stop him is to stroke his ego until he belives his own hype :(

Keano i find frustrating when he's in party-trick mode. He's much more effective when he keeps it simple.

JD is equally frustrating. I dont mind goalscorers being a bit selfish it's a part of their game but JD spends a lot of time playing his own game with his own agenda.

[RuFuS]

Berbs didnt celebrate out of repsect for his old club and fans, foreigners do that a lot and its great

Keane does not go over the top when he's scored for us against his former teams

[choda]

There are alot of people who disagree on the Keane vs Defoe debate. How many times have we had it here?

Personally i'm sitting on the fence with this one, I can see the players inside them both but we don't see either of them enough. If Keane is off form he is off form. Same for Defoe. They don't do things by halves. If their off form their absolute dogshit. If their on form their absolute dynamite.

Defoe will always score more goals for me, not many more but more nonetheless. And Keane will always set more up, that's to be expected though what with dropping back and picking the ball up.

I hate Defoe's attitude to the shirt whilst I love Keanes. Think back to when Sir Bill died that game when he scored - that was emotion as a fan and Keane displayed it. You'd never catch Defoe doing that. Then again he stormed down the tunnel at Brum (good or bad?).

Personally I would love to have a striker who is much more consistent than the both of them, that's why I can't make my mind up and give an answer. That's why I said Keane is replaceable. Just because I like Keane more doesn't neccessarily mean I would want him starting.

I would love for Keane to stay here for the rest of his career. But as a guarenteed starter? I don't think I would be able to cope with hot-cold-hot-cold-cold streaks for that long.

I'm much less adament about Jenas than I am about this Keane Defoe thing. And I really feel we need to drop Jenas.

I still think your being unfair to Keane mate. 1 goal in 2.6 games, a load of great team play and assists. Lot's of quality entertainment aswell. And what is football but half entertainment.

That's a serious tally.

Michale Owen is ****ing hot cold hot cold goalscoring. But Keano is more than a goalscorer. That's harsh. Like was he hot cold last night?

If you look at it overall he was brilliant last night. Okay he messed up one or two of his own chances, but sometimes it doesn't happen for you. It's his movement that created the chances or he created it on his own, not to mention the three or four key creative things he did to put others in.

The guys world class (ish). It's awful harsh I think.

[choda]

was most frustrated during the match that Keane esp wasnt finishing his chances and securing the win for us. now weve won it dont matter as much but at the time when the posts were made it did.
also as spur says it riles me when keane does an error and then someone else does it and he has a go at them like they should have passed even tho he didnt earlier. try encouraging them instead, applauding the efforts then advise them if their less experienced and also do the right thing yourself before preaching to others

but end of day i love him as a spurs player just want him on tip top form

Your last sentence sums up what we all want. The thing is though as I've said sometimes people's frustration with one or two moments lead to Keano negatives that go way over the top in my view. They cloud the overall picture.

He was the most important player on the pitch last night. You gave him 5 out of 10 and basically because he made you slam the couch twice.

Overall he was superb. Michael Owen often does nothing except good movement for a few games (which Robbie always does and way more even on his non scoring nights) and people say nothing except he'll come back to form. But people jump on Robbie even on a good night just because he did one or to things that frustrated them.

I don't get it.

The fact is he never hides and so he up there to be shot at all the time unlike others who hide form attention and do **** all and dick. I think it's awful unfair.

Defoe often gets no abuse even though all he did was take predictable shots while being the most selfish little **** on the planet and totally blind to his team mates.

But this is non-abuse getting behaviour because he 'testes the keeper' or didn't try something that might win the game and leave himself open to abuse if it doesn't come off.

Defoe's a simpleton and it shields him from the kind of stuff Keano unfairly gets thrown at him.

And Michael Owen gets little or no abuse but he is less consistant with form than Keane.

This is my point. People way over do it because Robbie frustrates at times. Don't get me wrong if you watched games with me you be bound to hear a few **** sake Keano moments. But I see it as wanting him to fulfil his full potential and add to his game and become truly world class.

I am not questioning his overall worth to spurs, it is massive. It would take a huge player to come in and be better than him.

[JJ]

I'm not abusing either of them. Robbie isn't playing the same role as he was last year, hence he is not scoring and rarely ever looks like scoring.

Defoe always looks more threatening, and will try and hit the target whenever he can. That's nothing more than a desire to score goals and sometimes we need that on the pitch.

[choda]

I'm not abusing either of them. Robbie isn't playing the same role as he was last year, hence he is not scoring and rarely ever looks like scoring.

Defoe always looks more threatening, and will try and hit the target whenever he can. That's nothing more than a desire to score goals and sometimes we need that on the pitch.

Sorry I don't mean to be aggressive mate. I'm just feel very strongly about this and in my view it's importance to our success.

[JJ]

Sorry I don't mean to be aggressive mate. I'm just feel very strongly about this and in my view it's importance to our success.

No worries, mate :) I completely understand where you're coming from as the majority of our attacking play now goes through him, and he does do fantastic things with the ball. The problem with that, in my eyes, is it usually means we're left short staffed up front and the positions he would take up last season when he was scoring, he doesn't seem to be in those positions anymore. Berbatov and Mido are more hold up players so it means they're not constantly gunning for goal either.

I'm not by any means saying that he would necessarily do a better job than Keane, i just think the games he comes on as sub, he needs more time.

There are periods in games where i think Defoe would do a good job purely by occupying the defence and trying to work the keeper. He just doesn't seem to get anything more than 10 minutes here and there most of the time.

I would hope that as we're already qualified that Defoe will play the whole of the next European game. Like Keane he needs to get more time on the pitch to hit form.

[mjbmedia]

sorry but keane wasnt that great last night, if he had been hed have scored at least three of his fairly easy chances for someone with the world class ability that people profess him to have, he'd have put a cross in to Berbs that went along the ground rather than all bouncing along making the tap in a formality rather than difficult to control .

Some are rather clouded in their appraisals of him all too often . yes like him cos of who and what he is but dont cover him in gold when he wasnt good enough to warrant such praise.

so 5 out of 10 stays cos he messed up three chances by trying to walk the ball in and a simple cross
BAE was our best player and chimbo snapping at his heels, Robbie love him but please shoot sometimes.

re previous post about JD, im a bit fed up the way hes being treated, irrespective of whether you think hes better or worse than others, after hes performance v Blackburn to then drag him off and replace him with Berbs when Mido was having a mare while JD was doing a lot of good things in both directions doesnt really motivate JD to try hard. i mean whats the point, hes does good , sets up chances that noone has bothered to get into the box at the penalty spot for (o JJ wasnt playing was he) etc etc then gets subbed when his partner couldnt hit a barn door from 2 yards

[Spur]

I think a comparison of Owen to Defoe is more acceptable not Owen to Keane. They are far to different.

I'm not saying he's not good what you say is right. He does create space, he can go past people and he does have moments of aboslute brilliance.

****, that goal against Villa a season back where he rolled it forward with his studs after jumping out from absolute nowhere was one of the goals of the season! The goal against Blackburn taking it on his chest twisting this way and that - that is stuff that you cannot teach. It is given to a person and they develop it themselves. You don't learn it you just do it.

But that's only twice in two seasons right there. My criticism of Keane is that he is very inconsistent. If he is on a bad run you know its a bad run. And the question is if we were to think of ourselves as a top team would we be able to have that...? I think not.

When I think of a player that is hot and cold I think Ronaldo. His form has been extremely sporadic over the last three years and look at what Madrid have won over those years...nothing.

Keane can be described as a luxury player. Of course there is more to him which we have said in previous posts but simply I think that could him in a sentence maybe? I don't kow if I buy that myself but still, i'm sure some would and do.

[mjbmedia]

also JD is NOT a simpleton or brainless, ffs can you stop saying that shit hes a spurs player .

[choda]

Well I do think he's brainless and a simpleton. I also think he's a bag of shit and I'm not going to be biased just because he's a spurs player.

I cheer him on when he plays and I'd never boo him, though if in the stadium I'm sure I'd offer some constructive if highly direct and foul mouthed criticism.

I still think people are awful harsh on Keane. I see what your saying there JJ about him dropping extra deep this year. As I've said already I'm not too pleased with this myself either.

But the other posts are just harsh. It's the same over here you know. Most of my mates say Keane is nowhere near world class. In fact a lot of them say he's shit!

How that for gratitute to the nations leading scorer ever by a mile at the age of 26?

Can you ****ing believe that?

He's the most underappreciated player in the planet and it ticks me off.

I think you lot are being harsh with the hot and cold stuff because absolutely loads of top strikers can be called that: Owen, Sheva, Drogba, Berba, Adriano, Crespo, Ibrahimovic, Mido, Torres, AJ, and even Rooney etc. But they don't get the abuse he does.

You can abuse them all or not. I choose not to be harsh on these players, they are among the top strikers in the world and not everybody can be the best: Eto and Henry. They are all fantastic players.

Even Rooney was getting abuse when he went through a bad spell. I found that ridiculous. He just needed to get a run and find form again. He's one of the best players in the world for god's sake. The boy's a genius.

But with Keane it's so over the top. As I say his frustrating moments (which he does have) I think tend to be way overblown and they turn into huge slights on his overall standard. It's grossly unfair.

The players from the above list many of them have less moments full stop. They might have four big moments in a game score a goal, have an assist and mess the other two up. Nobody says dick except he had a good game.

If one of them has a bad game and only two moments both of which he screws up then it was a bad game but it's not a slight on his ability.

Where as livewire clever as hell Robbie may have had ten moments, scored once, had two assists, had a load of good play come through him, had five times where he did well but nothing came of it and two moments where he tried to flick it over a guy, do the seal, do the bubble gum and knock it in but it didn't work and everybody says ****ing hell robbie.

Then loads of people jump on him and say he can't finsih his dinner and that he's a ****ing luxury player. Oh and give him five out of ten. It's a joke.

The man's a legend and I consistantly say it and not just after a stormer.

[mjbmedia]

Where as livewire clever as hell Robbie may have had ten moments, scored once, had two assists, had a load of good play come through him, had five times where he did well but nothing came of it and two moments where he tried to flick it over a guy, do the seal, do the bubble gum and knock it in but it didn't work and everybody says ****ing hell robbie.


The man's a legend and I consistantly say it and not just after a stormer.
wellfirst off sorry to lose most of your post, please dont have a go at me for editing the thread ;)

if Keane had done what you say in the first quoted paragraph then noone on here would be saying he could have done better, thing is he didnt and never looked like he would (score that is) and then to moan at Lennon or Chimbo or Mido for not passing to him when theyd already witnessed him messing up three clear chances is bollox.

we all love the guy, he aint a legend tho , not yet . Bobby Charlton , Bobby Moore , Puskas, Pele theyre legends. Maybe in Ireland he is a legend , that would be totally understandable, but in England hes not.

anyway i aint arguing i respect your views but dont agree with some of them and no matter how long you make your next post i doubt it will change any minds :)

[neilmcnab]

keane is a great player, however strikers are judged on goals, and ultimetly are remembered for the goals they scored in a game, they can have a crap game and score at the end and all is forgiven.....but if they miss all day and the other team score thell be blamed for not ssecuring the game and rightly so, they train to finish. as it stands our season pins on our strikers getting it right...which p until now 3 ,1/2months into the season our top scorer is defoe on 2 league goals....the recipe is definetly wrong and we need to add some ingredient or change the chef,{not jol}.

[choda]

wellfirst off sorry to lose most of your post, please dont have a go at me for editing the thread ;)

if Keane had done what you say in the first quoted paragraph then noone on here would be saying he could have done better, thing is he didnt and never looked like he would (score that is) and then to moan at Lennon or Chimbo or Mido for not passing to him when theyd already witnessed him messing up three clear chances is bollox.

we all love the guy, he aint a legend tho , not yet . Bobby Charlton , Bobby Moore , Puskas, Pele theyre legends. Maybe in Ireland he is a legend , that would be totally understandable, but in England hes not.

anyway i aint arguing i respect your views but dont agree with some of them and no matter how long you make your next post i doubt it will change any minds :)

I don't mind people cutting my posts at all. Maybe you didn't get what I was saying to don jol, or maybe your just doing your own jibey humour. Which is fine by the way unless it crosses the line into disrespectful (and that didn't of course).

Okay if you want to get technical about it he's not yet a legend. But he is a legend in the Irish record books because of the goal record at his age and that puts him up there with Brady, Best, Giles, McGrath, and Roy Keane (the elite of Irish football).

I meant it really as a personality thing. It was a bit of a throw away comment. He's a legend because he's Robbie. He's pure entertainment. The reason I support spurs is because of players like him ginola, gazza, hoddle, waddle and all the other entertainers that have graced this great club. Spurs indulge these chaps. I love that.

As I've said I don't even think he's world class, but last year in my view he wasn't far off. I'd like to see him first choice and given a chance to do it again and maybe more.

Sorry if my posts are bit long but I thought that is okay because they are my words and not a cut and paste job. I can write quick but I'm spending rather too much time on here lately when I'm sitting down to try to get a project done.

(Mjb humour): Maybe your posts are a bit short. :p

[mjbmedia]

(Mjb humour): Maybe your posts are a bit short. :p
yep i cant do them less than 10 digits tho

[JJ]

I have to agree that the criticism has been a bit harsh. He was pretty much at the root of all our chances yesterday. I just don't feel that its the most effective tactic for the team.

We go through too many games without really scaring the back 4, and Defoe can do that with a quick turn and snap shot. Granted they don't always hit the target, but they will start going in.

[choda]

I say just move Keane up the pitch to where he played last year.

I reckon Jol fancies a bit of a 4231 formation though. Lennon and Ghaly have been running beyond Keane a lot. It looks like he wants more of a liquid system.

I don't know what's too different between that and a 442 though. Manu are pretty flexible in their system and how they play in the league.

[suBerb]

In defence of Robbie I'd point out that Zlatan' s scoring record isn't better at all but he's considered better than Robbie. In Holland Zlatan's best achievment was 13 goals :eek: whereas the likes of Kezman and Kuyt scored 30-35 goals in a season. Last season he scored 7 goals in Seria A. :eek: Last season Torres scored only 13 in La Liga, 5-6 of them from penalties, most of the other were tap-ins...The same holds for Adriano and Gillardinho. Adriano's last goal was scored in March...

[Spur]

I say just move Keane up the pitch to where he played last year.

I reckon Jol fancies a bit of a 4231 formation though. Lennon and Ghaly have been running beyond Keane a lot. It looks like he wants more of a liquid system.

I don't know what's too different between that and a 442 though. Manu are pretty flexible in their system and how they play in the league.

After seeing the success of the Chelsea 4-3-3/4-5-1 against Chelsea I think we could almost be playing this. What I mean by almost is everyone knows their position but almost like the 4-3-3 is a secondary formation and when the time calls for it we are changing to it without making it look obvious. This is why sometimes you saw Steed over toward the right more as he had come infield.

Robbie I think has maybe been told that when he does drop back he does it on the left so as not to collide with Lennon who will obviously be hugging the right touchline further up the field than the midfield.

With Dimitar I think that would be ok as he can get himself into a good position to flick it on or make a turn. With Mido and Defoe it won't work.

[jrio]

In defence of Robbie I'd point out that Zlatan' s scoring record isn't better at all but he's considered better than Robbie. In Holland Zlatan's best achievment was 13 goals :eek: whereas the likes of Kezman and Kuyt scored 30-35 goals in a season. Last season he scored 7 goals in Seria A. :eek: Last season Torres scored only 13 in La Liga, 5-6 of them from penalties, most of the other were tap-ins...The same holds for Adriano and Gillardinho. Adriano's last goal was scored in March...

Keane misses a lot of easy chances and has a tendency to try extravagant flicks and passes which inevitably lose possession at stages when we're either level or only a goal ahead. Of the players you've mentioned only Ibrahimovic has similarities in style and he has a much bigger role in setting up chances.

[TomMcLaren]

Keane misses a lot of easy chances

That's the point really, he does miss a lot of easy chances, so on the face of it his scoring record could be twice as good (20-25 a season in the prem?) The thing that often gets overlooked is that he so often creates those chances himself through his movement or creativity: he basically get's criticised a lot for not being consistent enough in finishing the chances he has created. I would liken Keane to Rooney (not so chunky, I know), in that he has also taken shit for basically not being absolute ****ing brilliant 100% of the time. Load of shit really, but you can see the point cos it can be sooo frustrating to watch. I still wonder if we're going to be wondering how good Keane could be with clinical finishing.

Sorry if someone has already pointed this out, I can't be arsed to read the whole of this thread (especially Choda's gargantuan efforts - get a job mate! ;)).

[choda]

That's the point really, he does miss a lot of easy chances, so on the face of it his scoring record could be twice as good (20-25 a season in the prem?) The thing that often gets overlooked is that he so often creates those chances himself through his movement or creativity: he basically get's criticised a lot for not being consistent enough in finishing the chances he has created. I would liken Keane to Rooney (not so chunky, I know), in that he has also taken shit for basically not being absolute ****ing brilliant 100% of the time. Load of shit really, but you can see the point cos it can be sooo frustrating to watch. I still wonder if we're going to be wondering how good Keane could be with clinical finishing.

Sorry if someone has already pointed this out, I can't be arsed to read the whole of this thread (especially Choda's gargantuan efforts - get a job mate! ;)).

I do have job ya bollocks. I'm a writer!