YID debate

[Yiddo]

I thought this had gone away, but I saw an article on newsnow that suggested that the Spurs Trust and the club itself are trying to stop home and away fans chanting 'YIDS'.
I am not Jewish, but as a Spurs fan I have been calling myself a Yid, scribbling it all over my school books (a few years ago now), writing it on my crash helmet and generally embracing the term for the last 30 years.
Before I start going on about political correctness, can any of our brethren who are Jewish tell me if the term is really offensive and why?
I have been to many games at the Lane, mainly with my best mate who is Jewish ( although not very religious ) and he is not aware why it is deemed offensive.

[Spur]

I'm not Jewish but I call myself a Yid. Makes alot of people think I Jewish but there you go.

Got a link to the article?

[spurs61]

Well I'm Jewish and I don't have a problem with the use of the word by Spurs fans, i.e "Yid Army" etc. We (Spurs fans) have taken steps to re-appropriate what is normally viewed as an offensive word. In the same way that a lot of the younger black community have chosen to adopt the word "******" as a term of endearment and respect rather than the rasict and offensive terminology as used by the BNP and others. The word becomes offensive when used by supporters of other clubs in a derogatory and offensive manner, West Ham being the primary example.

[AndyHarker]

Political Correctness gone mad, what would the football be like without insults, i agree racism of any description isn't to be tollerated but there is a line and (personally) i don't think "Yid" crosses it

[Gregzy]

We have reclaimed the term 'Yid' from the boneheaded terrace masses, but I still have my reservations about it. If all the Spurs fans that used had the term had a knoweldge and respect for Jewish culture and tradition, it would be absolutely fine (I'm sure everyone who posts here has at least the respect btw) but I am often worried by some suporters who don't. Such as an asshole at my VIth form who always wore our shirt but still did a great line in anti-semitism - calling one of the Jewish teachers a 'Stupid ****ing kike' and telling me that he and his brother's favourite pass-time was driving through Golders Green throwing pork pies from the window. Do we really want this kind of ignorant muppet given the license to use a racist term? Does he view chanting "Yid army" as a defiant stance against the Idiot Minority at other clubs or does he seem to think it funny?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think us calling ourselves Yids is a bad thing per se - it DOES take away it's currency as an insult. Sadly, this has led to other teams adopting Chelscum songs and the truly awful "Sssssssssing" that I have heard at nearly every other ground I have visited with Spurs. Chants like that are just as abhorent as the monkey noises that get the coverage and I fully support any attempt by the FA and our own board to prosecute ANYONE involved in such bigoted behaiviour and punish the clubs involved. If monkey noises equal fines and bans (and I firmly believe they should) then so should anti-semitic singing. If we have to give up chanting 'Yid Army' to irradicate wider racist chanting in football, then I think that is a small price to pay.

[choda]

Yeah, your right there.

The whole ****ing Jewish thing annoys me though. Why the hell did it start in the first place? We're no more Jewish than Chelsea and Arsenal as far as I'm aware.

Not that there's anything wrong with being Jewish but I'm a Catholic and I have to listen to idiots calling me a Jew and insulting my 'race'. I don't identify with all that shit at all.

I've as much to do with the holocaust, non-rising bread, small hats and honouka as the people insulting me for it.

At least when I go the old firm I get called a fionnion bastard and a paddy. The one good thing I will say about Rangers ****s is that at least there insulting my religion, race and nationality.

[DonJolSpurano]

Personally, im uncomfortable with it, as is my Dad who i go with.

I understand the context of it and dont mind our fans using it. I dont even really mind being called a yid occasionally, as im sure many of us may have experienced when in foreign climes wearing our shirts and confronted by a fellow spur. Immediately the barriers are broken and a mutual understanding is established.

However, I dont use it myself and prefer not to join in with the rest of the fans when its chanted. Thats my simple choice.

The fans, even jewish ones, have used the various terms for a long time and I dont understand why the PC brigade are interferring now.
I can see both points of the issue but I just feel these liberal appeasers just dont really get it. Ive got a jewish friend and he doesnt mind the word yid, infact, he calls himself one sometimes. When we were all 21, we all got together and bought eachother our respective team shirts with 21 and our nicknames on the back. He got 'yid dogg' (he's a snoop fan :rolleyes: ) on his toffee shirt, but his mum hates it (but shes a swinging lush so doesnt count haha).

Someone mentioned the term '******' in popular use by black youth nowadays. Well I hate that. I find that REALLY offensive. Maybe the irony is lost on me but i just dont see how such a awful term can become suitable. My Nan had a black labrador when she wa a girl before the war and guess what it was called? Yeah, you guessed it and that wouldnt be acceptable these days. If I called a black guy '******' in the street, id be beaten to a pulp. So why should it be okay for a black guy or girl to do the same. Thats hypocritical, surely? Many people died to combat racism and get equal rights for black people, im sure these people would be terribly dismayed to see some little idiot calling people '******' as a term of endearment. Or I might be wrong.

So about trying to ban 'YID' or 'YID ARMY' @ WHL, is it wrong?

In my opinion, no. I might not be favourable of the word but that doesnt mean thousands others shouldnt be.

[mjbmedia]

errrr well for starters i suggest you go sit in the West Stand Upper then, also ex chairman uncle Irving was a Yid and mighty proud for everyone to know it.

as for other fans singing stuff, theyd do well in their lives if they can be a quarter as forgiving (in public at least) and determined to make good from impossible situations as the Jewish heritage has proved many of its people more than capable of.

funny thing happened many years ago on the way home from an away league match at QPR (shows how long ago it was!!!) . me and 4 mates got off the tube at Stratford to get onto our overland train home, 10 Chelsea supporters were on the platform making their 'early' way home from Norwich i think (probably neathanderals thrown out) anyway we have our colours on of course and the Chelsea lads shout out,' look Yids , lets **** em' and started running aggresively towards us. We carried on walking towards them cos we knew our tube was full of Spurs , sure enough on hearing that threat the carriages all emptied and ive never seen 10 fat ****ers in Blue run so fast in the opposite direction, unfortunately as they ran across the tracks no train was coming as that would have rounded the day off nicely but you cant have everything i guess.

[Gregzy]

The problem with all derogatory terms that are "reclaimed" is that it is really hard to say that a word is ok for some people to use and not others. The term 'Yid' doesn't have the same historic connations of negativity as the word ******, after all, yid is just a contaction of Yiddish so I don't think it is actually that bad a term. When it becomes "****ing tight Yid" and is said by someone who "Smels of pubs, Wormwood Scrubs and too many right wing meetings" (thanks Uncle Paul) then that is offensive.

The word ****** has NO positive association whatsoever - whoEVER uses the term. It is a word that was made by white slave-masters and should eb taken out of circulation IMMEDIATELY. It isn't ok for anyone to say that, regardless of their ethnicity. As a black academic whose name escapes me said "Whilst we call each other ******, the racists are doing pretty good business"

One love

Come On You Spurs

[Yiddo]

I suppose the bottom line is that I like being a Yid. I have been one for so long it feels like it is part of my identity.
In the same way it would be ridiculous to brand a black man a racist for referring to himself as a ****** how can it be considered racist if I call myself a Yid?
It is totally different if you call yourself a name than if someone else uses it in a derogatory way. As with most complicated questions there is no simple answer, but to try and bring in legislation that would have to be policed and proven in court seems like an impossible job and one that could end up costing a lot of money to be either ineffective or worse to be abused by lawyers and lunatic factions on the left and right to further pervert the justice system.

[choda]

Yeah I don't mind being called a yid and even use it myself. It just means one of the geniune people to me. However I don't like being called a tight yid bastard whcih takes on another meaning (and I'm not even Jewish).

I think this whole issue can be complicated. It's all about the context in my opinion. Words are imperfect symbols. ****** and Yid are just words and can have multiple and clear meanings.

Two blacks saying, 'what's up m'*****' to each other is a term of enderment and has taken on seperate meaning of respect to a person of the same roots.

A group of neo nazi's chanting ****** and making monkey noises is a deep racism.

That's just my opinion anyway and I like it becuase it's not complicated either.

[laspur]

There is a fine line between the use of certain words, eventually someone will be offended. My jewish friends don't seem bothered by the term "yid" yet I don't feel right using the term because i'm not jewish. If there is ever going to be a pleasant loving eachother world free of bigots, well we need to stamp out any questionable use of racist words. Can it happen? Not in my lifetime.

[choda]

There is a fine line between the use of certain words, eventually someone will be offended. My jewish friends don't seem bothered by the term "yid" yet I don't feel right using the term because i'm not jewish. If there is ever going to be a pleasant loving eachother world free of bigots, well we need to stamp out any questionable use of racist words. Can it happen? Not in my lifetime.

But some people are offended when they shouldn't be aswell. I think it is clear when they harmful and racist and when they are not. I think it's also clear when they shouldn't be used at all. Like I wouldn't say to a black man, ' what up *****', even though there would be no racist connotation but it's not appropriate.

[laspur]

Choda, can you give me an example of a racist word that isn't offensive? I see some truth to your point, but can you guarantee no one will be offended.

[choda]

Choda, can you give me an example of a racist word that isn't offensive? I see some truth to your point, but can you guarantee no one will be offended.

Well I thought I did.

When two getto brothers (black men) say 'what up m'*****' then it is not offensive to them nor in my opinion should it be to anyone else.

Personally if I was black I wouldn't stop using the term because I'd say I'd like it and it would actually be a positive connotation... so if some other black dude hated it then that's his issue and I would respect him by not calling him it but I also wouldn't give a shit.

In my view people think about these things way too much. I think common sense is the ruling factor here.

Even if racism didn't exist and that could be a reality in the future at some stage then there would probably still be these debates about words and political correctness etc. To me it's all about the intentions behind the words, otherwise you start getting into unnecessary complicated arguements.

That's what I think anyway.

[Spur]

One day I may get YIDDO on my Spurs shirt...I wonder if the shop would let me?

[laspur]

Well I thought I did.

When two getto brothers (black men) say 'what up m'*****' then it is not offensive to them nor in my opinion should it be to anyone else.

Personally if I was black I wouldn't stop using the term because I'd say I'd like it and it would actually be a positive connotation... so if some other black dude hated it then that's his issue and I would respect him by not calling him it but I also wouldn't give a shit.

In my view people think about these things way too much. I think common sense is the ruling factor here.

Even if racism didn't exit and that could be a reality in the future at some stage then there would probably still be these debates about words and political correctness etc. To me it's all about the intentions behind the words, otherwise you start getting into unnecessary complicated arguements.

That's what I think anyway.
I still don't think it helps matters to crush racism though. I may just be programmed since i live in a country where you get sued for just about anything.

[choda]

I still don't think it helps matters to crush racism though. I may just be programmed since i live in a country where you get sued for just about anything.

I think they are doing all they can to get rid of it.

It really starts at home and in school which should be creating better developed humans.

We all know however that the school system leaves a lot to be desired. In fact as we know there is an unpleasant atmosphere at school. This is down to two things in my opinion: Number one kids hate school and two most kids are psychologically unhealthy, and develop into psychologically unhealthy adults.

I've studied this area quite a bit and there will probably be some radical changes over the next decade in schooling. Accelerated learning and going back to the methods of ancient greece will be the way forward and it will create humans that don't see the world in set thinking and generalisations.

The effect would be profound in kids loving school and in being psychologically healthy people.

Unfortunately the guys in power in the world have an interest in this not happening and have prevented it for many years and may continue to. It is in their interests for the majority to be ignorant, so they can continue to sodimise them in so many ways.

Ps. Before I meant to say 'if racism didn't exist' not 'if racism didn't exit'.

[laspur]

Your last paragraph sums up my feelings of our current govt. The home is the 1st area of education in my opinion. Not just reading and writing, i mean social skills along with learning whats wrong and whats right to do in society. There are too many parents not being parents or the lack of growing up with a single overworked parent seems to hamper many kids potential. The list goes on, i'll stop before i try and save the world.

[choda]

Your last paragraph sums up my feelings of our current govt. The home is the 1st area of education in my opinion. Not just reading and writing, i mean social skills along with learning whats wrong and whats right to do in society. There are too many parents not being parents or the lack of growing up with a single overworked parent seems to hamper many kids potential. The list goes on, i'll stop before i try and save the world.

Yeah there should be like a compulsary parenting course for every mother and father to be.

Have you ever watched some of those reality tv shows where a psychologist comes into a troubled home and it is truly amazing the difference good parenting can make to a kids happyness and behaviour.

Good schooling would be just as profound.

[mjbmedia]

if you were communicating with one person, or a select group of known recievers , then you can easily direct your outward communications towards them in a manner you know/feel they will take in the way it was meant.
If you are aiming your communications at a number of people, as in Chelsea towards Spurs supporters, or Eastern Euro fans towards non white footballers, then you are less likely to direct your communications in a manner they would ALL collectively find acceptable.
200 spurs fans could find being called 'YID' appropriate and start to rejoice in it even if only to shove the intended insult back down chelseas throats, another 200 could not give a toss either way and totally ignore the communications from chelsea, another 200 could find it deeply offensive (and probably intended) and more than likely bring more 'insults' their way by reacting like that.

so its not how it leaves your mouths , its how its recieved that dictates whether its an insult or not

[DonJolSpurano]

****** and Yid are just words and can have multiple and clear meanings.

Two blacks saying, 'what's up m'*****' to each other is a term of enderment and has taken on seperate meaning of respect to a person of the same roots.

A group of neo nazi's chanting ****** and making monkey noises is a deep racism.


but thats wrong. if a word is offensive to one ethnic group, then its offensive...FULL STOP. whether you're neo-nazi, white, black or even green, such words shouldnt become acceptable, just like we (when i say we, i mean decent, normal people) shouldnt say paki, golly, wog, minstrel (i used this word the other week in another context and another member kicked off calling me racist. i had no idea), paddy, suicide-bomber, rag 'ed etc.

the black rights movement worked so hard to push words like ****** and its associated attitudes out of society so that fellow blacks would be treated equally.

why now, after several generations of white and black people alike have grown up to think upon it as a truely repulsive word, should a bunch of morons start calling one another by it and it not be wrong?

[mjbmedia]

why now, after several generations of white and black people alike have grown up to think upon it as a truely repulsive word, should a bunch of morons start calling one another by it and it not be wrong?
cos the person or people they are saying it to are not offended by it, if someone else hears it but its not addressed to that person then while that is a shame noone can really say the person talking has been offensive towards that individual, as the comment wasnt intended for that persons ears

end of the day if people get that upset over a few words, whatever those words are, then those people are pretty weak

ie lets say somone is called a black bastard. now many people will fume at the offensive use of the word black when in fact its just distinguishing that person from the guy next to them, but many wont even query the real personal nasty insult bit 'bastard' . if there were three black guys next to each other then another descriptive term would need to be added, fat maybe or tall or built like a brick shithouse, but the PC crew would still shreak more about the 'black' word , yet if these people are supposedly so proud of their heritage and history, why on earth would they take offence of the black word

also what really annoys me is on most of these forms you fill in for official stuff, you get ten choices of being non white, carribean, african, afro carribean, hispanic, asian oriental, asian pakistani, hindhu,muslim etc etc etc
and then you mainly get the one white option, white caucasian, what about white european, to distinguish me from theamericans , aussies, new zealanders etc etc , so i go into the interview, theres me a striaight, able bodied white english guy, three asian types, 2 black people, someone in a wheelchair and a lesbian!!!! i just know im not gonna get the job solely due to the equal opportunities crap:D :p

[DonJolSpurano]

cos the person or people they are saying it to are not offended by it, if someone else hears it but its not addressed to that person then while that is a shame noone can really say the person talking has been offensive towards that individual, as the comment wasnt intended for that persons ears

end of the day if people get that upset over a few words, whatever those words are, then those people are pretty weak

ie lets say somone is called a black bastard. now many people will fume at the offensive use of the word black when in fact its just distinguishing that person from the guy next to them, but many wont even query the real personal nasty insult bit 'bastard' . if there were three black guys next to each other then another descriptive term would need to be added, fat maybe or tall or built like a brick shithouse, but the PC crew would still shreak more about the 'black' word , yet if these people are supposedly so proud of their heritage and history, why on earth would they take offence of the black word

also what really annoys me is on most of these forms you fill in for official stuff, you get ten choices of being non white, carribean, african, afro carribean, hispanic, asian oriental, asian pakistani, hindhu,muslim etc etc etc
and then you mainly get the one white option, white caucasian, what about white european, to distinguish me from theamericans , aussies, new zealanders etc etc , so i go into the interview, theres me a striaight, able bodied white english guy, three asian types, 2 black people, someone in a wheelchair and a lesbian!!!! i just know im not gonna get the job solely due to the equal opportunities crap:D :p


i totally get your second paragraph and kind of agree with you.

i also see what ya mean about official forms. that often depends on who you're applying to though. i knw when i filled out my HM Forces forms i had the choice of white european/irish etc, so i was able to narrow down my choice to one that was more accurate than just 'random white guy'. one thing that does annoy me on official forms though is marital status. theres never an option for long-term partner. theres married, single, divored, widowed but thats usually it. again, my Forces forms where different and i was able to tick a partner box, but then i was worried they might think i was gay and wouldnt let me in. obviously, i clarified this in my interviews when asked about it.

and im blabbering lol

[DonJolSpurano]

Yeah there should be like a compulsary parenting course for every mother and father to be.

Have you ever watched some of those reality tv shows where a psychologist comes into a troubled home and it is truly amazing the difference good parenting can make to a kids happyness and behaviour.

Good schooling would be just as profound.

no, there should be execution squads, or more humanely, human sterilisation procedures for idiots and retards who decide to have sex when they cant even spell condom or birth control.

does this sound harsh?

[spurs61]

no, there should be execution squads, or more humanely, human sterilisation procedures for idiots and retards who decide to have sex when they cant even spell condom or birth control.

does this sound harsh?

A bit lieniant if you ask me. I'd introduce a licensing scheme to ensure fit parenting and means testing.

[mjbmedia]

no, there should be execution squads, or more humanely, human sterilisation procedures for idiots and retards who decide to have sex when they cant even spell condom or birth control.

does this sound harsh?
hahahaha yeh perfect, join your idea with chodas and this country might start to get somewhere good again

[choda]

The term `*****` and Black are dif within the black culture, ***** refers to the equivalent of white trailer trash or lower class... say like calling a white lad a scum, chav etc etc...

As someone once said... "Love the blacks, but I hate the *****s"

And I am sorry, but a few poster here sound like the people on the website below..
http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/letters.html

As for me, I could not give a shite what colour, creed or belief anyone holds, as long as they mean no harm, do not force their belief system on me and finally score shit load of goals and play well

;-)

Man, you get yourself in a tysy over nothing.

True equal liberty (including freedom of speech) is not even thinking about the shit you are thinking about. It is treating and taking the piss out of black people just the same as you would white honkies who can't jump.

Just chill, it all just comes down to common sense.

[mjbmedia]

Man, you get yourself in a tysy over nothing.

True equal liberty (including freedom of speech) is not even thinking about the shit you are thinking about. It is treating and taking the piss out of black people just the same as you would white honkies who can't jump.

Just chill, it all just comes down to common sense.
absolutely my man, and if those people cant take it, tough shit, thats their problem for being too weak or taking things way too personal.
only weak people ever found the likes of Bernard Manning deeply offensive, but if those weak people had watched the whole show theyd have seen him take the piss out of the whole united nations of peoples including his 'own' kind , yet they switch off after the first joke and call him a racist!!!!

[Gregzy]

As someone once said... "Love the blacks, but I hate the *****s"


;-)

Someone being Chris Rock. :)

[SSS]

Can the club really stop us singing it.....? Don't think so. I mean ffs it says NO BAD LANGUAGE on the back of the seats at WHL, but all I heard at the West Ham game was **** OFF REF YOU ****ING ******. Unless thats not bad languague of course :P

[Yiddo]

Guys

So much for solving the worlds racial problems. I still want to know can I keep calling myself Yiddo? The only people I care if I upset are fellow Spurs fans who are Jewish. If it is disrespectful to them I care, everyone else's opinion bothers me not. Life is too short, perhaps if more people concerned themselves with their business and stopped forcing their opinions on others then we would all get along better. Shit, now you've got me at it.

[mjbmedia]

yeh matey and thats what our answers are saying,its like with all debatable aspects of life, is that some will be bothered, others wont, so unless you individually ask each and every Jewish person you are near before you shout out 'Yiddo' every time your original question and indeed this whole thread is nothing more than a glorious waste of time and internet space .

thankyou and goodnight ;)