Perplexed, worried and just plain pissed off.

[spurs61]

Before you lot have a major rant at me, I would point out that in no way am I calling for Jol's head, merely a drastic rethink to our team;

After yet another inglorious and witless performance the time has come for the players and coaching staff to roll their sleeves up and be counted. As we all know, this has been our worst start to a league season for over a decade, but it’s worse than that. We are losing to, and not scoring against, sides who we should and would have beaten last season. We’re not in a crisis yet but two more games will see a seriously dark cloud form over N17.

The management can bang on about an improved team who haven’t gelled yet but I ask whose fault that is? We have had as much or a little preparation as all the other teams in the league and our first team is almost unchanged from the previous year. The “not gelling” excuse sounds even more preposterous given that the team leading the table at this time have acquired 11 or 12 new players, at least half of who start. The undeniable fact is that our coach(es?) have got our tactics and line up wrong from the word go this season. We have almost eradicated any creativity from the entire side as well as any genuine wide players other than Lennon. The pedestrian and cumbersome midfield has no penetration or guile and thus far the front men have been totally and utterly starved of service. Our two victories this season (and three measly goals) has come against sides that are so inferior as to be insignificant and irrelevant.

This is not a question of allowing the players time to get a better understanding; there is a requirement to totally reshape the balance and style of the team. If, as MJ appears to insist, we are going to play four central midfielders, it may be a good plan to field players who have an idea of their respective jobs. It appears to me that at the moment they are just told to go out and play and fill in gaps where needed. This is great in theory but in practise footballers need direction and instruction otherwise they run about like headless chickens, which is pretty much what we have seen this season.

So what’s the solution? Well we clearly have a dearth of wide men to pose problem to opposition full backs, so we have to flood the midfield. The backline does look very solid on the past few performances so no need to make any alterations there. Clearly we have four strikers who can score goals but they need service and support from the midfield. So what’s the solution?? Well, there’s no point in playing two upfront if neither are getting any service so my suggestion would be to play five men in the centre of the park with one (Keane) being given a free role to roam over the pitch and break forward to support a front man (Berbatov or Mido). We play Zokora as a defence spring board to protect the back four and launch counter attacks. I’d then play Huddlestone and one of Tainio or Ghaly in the immediate centre of the park to spread the play and otherwise be our creative fulcrum. We then play either Jenas or preferably Lennon high up the pitch on the right and heavily supported by Chimbonda (Zokora will cover any gaps). Obviously there is a big hole on the left hand side that MUST be addressed, I have no real answer to the dilemma but then nor does MJ or anyone else. In the absence of a better plan until January I’d consider either playing Zeigler or Lee on that flank and have them change around with Ekotto to at least give us a bit of balance and crossing ability.

Clearly this is not how we should be playing but given the resources at our disposal I think this is the most balanced and structured way for the squad to adapt to what is a very trying time for all.

[Welsh Spur]

1. Lennon is injured, and we let his cover go (Routledge)
2. We have no other wingers.

These two problems are causing us to field players out of position and who are to inexperienced to realise that they are playing a different position. i.e. Jenas, who kept coming inside last night, to get the ball. If he's playing wide right surely he links with Chimbonda and then pushes forward to deliver a cross? The midfield is ****ed, and that's our problem.

Right now, my solution is to play Huddlestone as a defensive midfielder, With Zokora and Jenas each side of him, further up the park, so that they can attack and come back easily enough. Keane should then be in a hole behind Defoe and one of Berbatov or Mido. Defoe's aim would be to use his pace to get behind defenders and to drag them out of position, to free up space for Keane to create play or have a go himself.

[spurs61]

The midfield is ****ed, and that's our problem.

Eloquently put Welshie! ;)

[choda]

That's what I suggest aswell Welshie but I'd play Murphy instead of Jenas. I think we need someone clever in there aswell.

As I've said before though I think we badly need to start looking to pass the ball forward and square if we have to and keep the ball rolling. Begrudingly as I say this they need to watch how Arsenal pass the ball. That creates good movements, tempo and pass n'move.

Or better yet watch Barcelona because they get everything right going forward. They pass it superbly and also have many dimensions in the final third. The only problem with arsenal is that they don't get direct enough in the final third. You have to wip balls in and get men in the box, look for the ball over the top, be good on the break and pass your way right to goal.

Arsenal only do the last two. But in fairness to them they are superb at passing the ball and it creates good movements, tempo and pass n'move. Something we are sorely lacking right now.

[spurs61]

If you swap Zokora round with Tom and possibly drop Defoe for another more combative and creative (yeah right) player then that is exactly the line up I'm getting at Welshie. Keane gets a free role to cause damage all over the pitch and the two players behiind him do a creative and supporting role as well as helping the back five (indcluding Zokora). In this way we can attack and defend in numbers and have players arriving late in the opposition area.

[choda]

If you swap Zokora round with Tom and possibly drop Defoe for another more combative and creative (yeah right) player then that is exactly the line up I'm getting at Welshie. Keane gets a free role to cause damage all over the pitch and the two players behiind him do a creative and supporting role as well as helping the back five (indcluding Zokora). In this way we can attack and defend in numbers and have players arriving late in the opposition area.

I see what you are saying spur61 but in my opinion the main thing we need to address is the passing. Are you saying going to a five in midfield? Do you think that would help overall. Maybe it could, are you thinking sheffield?

If so why not play keane and two strikers? That's easily possible with three central midfielders behind and full backs that are good going forward. Remember Berb was isolated mostly against sheffield. Long term I'm not sure that would work. Sheffield are pants.

I know you like the width by the sounds of it but you can penetrate and spread the play with a flexible system like the christmas tree... if you do it properly. I would use that because we are lacking big time wingers right now.

Keanoldinho was suggesting the barca system aswell using Keano on the left and Defoe on the right. May work better than my system. I often cry out for width when watching diamonds or christmas trees... so I hear ya. They often don't cut it.

[spurs61]

Yeah, but that would still leave us very narrow and lacking in creativity. The midfield you've got above is far too one paced and does not break beyond the centre forward which is essential if we only play Berbatov or Mido upfront. You then can't play Defoe and Keane as they will get in each others way, looking for balls down the channel etc. I'm afraid its a horribly unbalaced side there and you'd find the centre of the pitch so congested that we may need to start charging!

We could play with wing backs which would negate our lack of width but I'm not sure who we'd play as the third centre half, possibly Tom who would step out when possible. Then we could play two upfront and only play one defensive midfielder. This might work actually as our full backs have great pace and energy. We would have to play Robbie behind the strikers as he's the only one with vision and imagination. I'm begining to convince myself here!

[choda]

Yeah, but that would still leave us very narrow and lacking in creativity. The midfield you've got above is far too one paced and does not break beyond the centre forward which is essential if we only play Berbatov or Mido upfront. You then can't play Defoe and Keane as they will get in each others way, looking for balls down the channel etc. I'm afraid its a horribly unbalaced side there and you'd find the centre of the pitch so congested that we may need to start charging!

We could play with wing backs which would negate our lack of width but I'm not sure who we'd play as the third centre half, possibly Tom who would step out when possible. Then we could play two upfront and only play one defensive midfielder. This might work actually as our full backs have great pace and energy. We would have to play Robbie behind the strikers as he's the only one with vision and imagination. I'm begining to convince myself here!

I think you're misinterpreting how that system is played. Did you see spain in the wc or venebles old barca sides. That is how it is played?

You have keane and murphy, that's two creative players who'd support the front player and also zokora's dynamism getting up and down.

You could also just stick defoe up front and Keane behind.

I disagree about your comments with the midfield lacking creativity and the ability to support. In my opinion the only problem there is that there is a lack of width can become a big problem as you are asking a lot of the midfielders and full backs to give you that aswell. And so I do take your point about that and think we'd be best trying the barca system or wing backs.

[Welsh Spur]

The main thing here is that the coaching staff can see the problem. And you know what? By not signing any wide pacy midfielders I'm not sure they do. I mean, yeah, they clearly know our problem lies in midfield what with all the tinkering in that area, but playing four central midfielders in the four positions when none of the four are recognised for their attacking wing play doesn't make much sense. Neither does letting Routledge and Reid go without signing anyone.

So for the next game I'd like to see that the players have worked on this or new players are used in those positions. Even as people are suggesting, maybe a player such as YP Lee could be used on the left as he doesn't seem required at the moment.

[spurs61]

Just seen this quote from MJ;

Jol said: "Our lack of goals has not just been about the strikers, though they should have showed more imagination - it has been about the service they’ve received as well." - Yes, it has been about the service, to question the strikers imagination is unfair to some extent. You can have all the imagination in the world but if you don't get the ball.....

"The supporters knew that some influential players were out." - And? I thought we were supposed to have a big squad to cope with all but the worst injury crisis?

"Normally the service would be better with Aaron Lennon, but he was not fit." - So why have we allowed his natural replacement to go on loan?

"We could have been a bit more lively up front and more creative in midfield and up front." - Stating the obvious here Mart, the fact that we've scored two goals this season kinda speaks for itself. Address the problem rather thn bemoaning it.

"After the way we played at Man U and in Prague, I was looking to get some more points on the board. But I felt Fulham came for a result, probably a draw." - Then why did we not have the team set up to counteract this? Why were no changes made at half time when it was obvious that Fulham were playing for a point and we could not break them down?

This is just a barrel load of excuses and does not help the team at all, nor do comments like this improve the attitude of the majority of supporters. I don't want to hear what is going wrong and why, I want to hear how the management intends to rectify the problems.

[Welsh Spur]

I have to ask this question. It's nagging at me, eating me alive almost.

If we lose to Liverpool, and draw or lose the three games after that (pompey and Spam at home, Villa away) our record will stand at one win, 1-4 draws and 4-7 losses, after 9 games. What happens to MJ then?

[spurs61]

The simple answer Welshie is that sadly he would have to go. You can't go a quarter of the way through a season having only won one game, especially considering last season. Even if we did lose MJ, who would you replace him with?

[JJ]

Routledge was already gone when they discovered Lennon's injury. There was no reason to keep him as he needs to be playing football. You think he would still be at Spurs if he was just rotting on the bench for all of last season?

Not a chance.

[spurs61]

Routledge was already gone when they discovered Lennon's injury. There was no reason to keep him as he needs to be playing football. You think he would still be at Spurs if he was just rotting on the bench for all of last season?

Not a chance.

Well then that's just short-sightedness in the extreme. Did anyone seriously think we could play a 19 year old week in and week out? Even if Lennon stayed fit all season it's too much to ask him to play two games a week. Given some of Routledges performances for Pompey last season and the fact that we should be competing in four fronts it was just sheer stupidity to allow Routledge to go on loan.

[Welsh Spur]

I'm with spurs61....

...correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Routledge and Lennon the only two out-and-out wingers we have?

[choda]

Jasus, I didn't think we'd be thinking about Jol getting the boot. Does he deserve it if we lose twice and draw twice or worse in the next four. Maybe?

I still believe in him though.

But I must admit my mind is wondering about Lippi's comments that he wants to manage in England soon.

And also the fact that big freddy must be getting sweaty already.

[mjbmedia]

why do you want MJ to tell the football world how he is going to solve our problems??????

so you want him to help prepare the opposition by telling them what we intend to do, who he intends to do it and how ??
why not just give the three points away ??

end of the day the opposition are raising their games against us due to our performances last season, and we as yet havent come to terms with it, same happened with the other one season wonders (Everton, Newcastle,Leeds, Blackburn etc etc)
Last season we were playing teams who had also come to play a football match, this season we are playing teams that have come to shut up shop, even MAn U sat on their 1-0 lead and if we'd have had the luck that Arsenal had had (Van Der Sar absent) then wed have scored there, maybe won there and then this thread wouldnt be here .

as Mido said, if one of our chances had gone it v Fulham it would have totally changed the game , bought Fulham out and we'd either have won by more or been utter numpties and given it away , either way would have made Fulham play football for the rest of the match .

i feel mj needs to stick with a front pairing, tell them they will have 5 games no matter what, take the dumb pressure off them both cos theyre not performing with it on their shoulders, you think if i miss this chance i may be subbed and dropped and you miss it. think its ok im still gonna start and youll likely bury it , hence them often playing better as subs than as startrs cos the incentives there to show up the other guy.

i still feel a long unbeaten run has just started with the last two games , we will be top 5 by xmas and then hopefully this time we can carry on playing thru the winter

[spurs61]

But I must admit my mind is wondering about Lippi's comments that he wants to manage in England soon.

Really? Drools..........now I might not be opposed to that.

[choda]

why do you want MJ to tell the football world how he is going to solve our problems??????

so you want him to help prepare the opposition by telling them what we intend to do, who he intends to do it and how ??
why not just give the three points away ??

end of the day the opposition are raising their games against us due to our performances last season, and we as yet havent come to terms with it, same happened with the other one season wonders (Everton, Newcastle,Leeds, Blackburn etc etc)
Last season we were playing teams who had also come to play a football match, this season we are playing teams that have come to shut up shop, even MAn U sat on their 1-0 lead and if we'd have had the luck that Arsenal had had (Van Der Sar absent) then wed have scored there, maybe won there and then this thread wouldnt be here .

as Mido said, if one of our chances had gone it v Fulham it would have totally changed the game , bought Fulham out and we'd either have won by more or been utter numpties and given it away , either way would have made Fulham play football for the rest of the match .

i feel mj needs to stick with a front pairing, tell them they will have 5 games no matter what, take the dumb pressure off them both cos theyre not performing with it on their shoulders, you think if i miss this chance i may be subbed and dropped and you miss it. think its ok im still gonna start and youll likely bury it , hence them often playing better as subs than as startrs cos the incentives there to show up the other guy.

i still feel a long unbeaten run has just started with the last two games , we will be top 5 by xmas and then hopefully this time we can carry on playing thru the winter

Very good points, I was thinking a lot of those things aswell about other teams not playing against us now. But it is up to us to adapt, and as you say I think we will.

We do also need to give the strikers a run of games.

[MiloMinderbinder]

[QUOTE=choda;22722]That's what I suggest aswell Welshie but I'd play Murphy instead of Jenas. I think we need someone clever in there aswell.

One slight problem there, Murphy is as pedestrian as it gets, he was terrible yesterday from the word go. The only time he broke sweat was to get himself into the changing rooms at full time, he has no pace, can't beat a man, can't tackle. I was told when we signed him that he's a 9 game player i.e. for every one game he plays well you get 8 were he may as well not be there.:mad:

[Welsh Spur]

I'll reserve my judgement until after the West Ham game, that'll be the first quarter gone, along with a possible 27 points. Surely we should have been looking at 15+ at the start of the season, we'd have to win 3 of the next four to be anywhere near that. It's definately doable, we should be beating Pompey, West Ham and Villa anyway and at least giving Liverpool a fight. I though this season was progression? Instead we're worryin about whether we can get points off the teams mentioned above.

I couldn't imagine Jol going and I don't think he'll be sacked unless we are losing every game. Remember we have the cups too and a feww good runs along with bringing one home (FA or UEFA, Carling doesn't really count, does it?) and a top 10 finish will keep him his job. Especially if it's the UEFA that we bring back to WHL.

[spurs61]

I agree mjb, we certainly need to stick with a front partnership to give them time to reach an understanding.

I don't want MJ to actually tell us what he's got in mind but weak ass excuses cuts no mustard with me. I'd rather he kept quite and focused on rectifying the glaring deficiencies in the team.

Mido's comments were equally stupid, of course it would have been a different game if we'd have scored. It would have been an equally different game if Bolton hadn't scored in the opening ten minutes!

I like your optimism regarding the commencement of an unbeaten run, wish I could agree with you.

Welshie, a mid table finish will result in MJ getting the boot. We've spent over £30 mil this season and if we don't at least get into the UEFA Cup and consolidate on our finish last year the writting will be on the wall. I don't condone this but I can't see it any other way.

[JJ]

Well then that's just short-sightedness in the extreme. Did anyone seriously think we could play a 19 year old week in and week out? Even if Lennon stayed fit all season it's too much to ask him to play two games a week. Given some of Routledges performances for Pompey last season and the fact that we should be competing in four fronts it was just sheer stupidity to allow Routledge to go on loan.

Perhaps, but like i said i highly doubt that Routledge would have been at all willing to stay if it looked like Lennon was going to stay fit and play all season.

There weren't any complaints last season about loaning him out, and that's because it didn't matter.

[Welsh Spur]

An unbeaten run with the fixtures we've got coming is not unrealistic in any way whatsoever. Man U scraped past us and let's be honest, it was our fault we didn't beat Fulham. If we get one simple thing right then our fortunes can change in a click of your fingers; we all know what football's like.

[MiloMinderbinder]

I don't want MJ to actually tell us what he's got in mind but weak ass excuses cuts no mustard with me. I'd rather he kept quite and focused on rectifying the glaring deficiencies in the team.

The guys around us as half time were actually saying "...at least Jol isn't offering the we haven't gelled excuse.........." oh dear :o

Do you think giving away points in a sloppy fashion against shit teams like Sunderland last year has perhaps contributed to the inescapably cautious start to our season? even against poor opposition (Sheffield and Prague) we seemed pretty cagey about getting more than 4 players at a time in an attacking position.

[spurs61]

Perhaps, but like i said i highly doubt that Routledge would have been at all willing to stay if it looked like Lennon was going to stay fit and play all season.

There weren't any complaints last season about loaning him out, and that's because it didn't matter.

But last season we didn't even play one game a week, of course Lennon could cope with that work load, although to my mind he tended to fade from games on the 3/4 mark. The addition of Routledge from the bench probably would have secured fourth place last season, just look at the number of goals conceded in the last 15 minutes when Aaron had faded from view and we posed a limited attacking threat as a result. So yes, I did complain and yes it did matter.

[suBerb]

In 5 games we have scored only 2 goals. I'm not sure that's true for it's nearly impossible given the players we have.

Lack of creativity? Not only...I think that our team faces a serious psychological problem due to fans' high expectations...The only solution to the problem is to win at least three games in row. This will boost the confidence of the team and the overall performance of our attacking players.

Can we do it? I'm not that sure. This season may be a disaster...Still I think that we'll win a big cup, the FA or UEFA Cup.

[JJ]

But last season we didn't even play one game a week, of course Lennon could cope with that work load, although to my mind he tended to fade from games on the 3/4 mark. The addition of Routledge from the bench probably would have secured fourth place last season, just look at the number of goals conceded in the last 15 minutes when Aaron had faded from view and we posed a limited attacking threat as a result. So yes, I did complain and yes it did matter.

I hardly think the 15 late goals that were conceded were anything to do with Lennon fading from the game. Last season we had a horrific track record with late **** ups.

Besides, i'm talking about whether Routledge would be happy to sit on the bench for an entire season in the hopes that something happens to Lennon. Granted it has done now, but he waited last season and got nothing, therefore he went out on loan because of it. If he wasn't going on these loan deals then we would have sold him by now.

[spurs61]

Do you think giving away points in a sloppy fashion against shit teams like Sunderland last year has perhaps contributed to the inescapably cautious start to our season? even against poor opposition (Sheffield and Prague) we seemed pretty cagey about getting more than 4 players at a time in an attacking position.

Yes I do to some extent, but the cautiousness was apparent last season. Had we not sat back against teams like Sunderland we'd have won the game. As it is MJ was content to sit on a one goal lead and allow the opposition to attack us and we all know how that ended. I just think Jol is a naturally cautious tactician (let's not forget he was a very defensive midfielder in his playing days) which would explain his love of Jenas. (To be fair to Jenas he was supposedly our best player yesterday.)

[MiloMinderbinder]

(To be fair to Jenas he was supposedly our best player yesterday.)[/QUOTE]

He was, along with the fullbacks and you know what I think of him but he was the only one, including Teemu, who really looked like je wanted to take the game by the scruff of the neck.

[neilmcnab]

guys they train all day every day... weather it be physical football, or team tactics... to say they need time to gel during matches..... and they are professionals they shud be able to play to a standard even if its only lasy 15mins.... i theink is a lot down to the players concerned... zoko has steped up as ekkoto and chimbonda needed no games to settle... other players need to get a grip...and take responsability... out front line seem to be sulking...at not bein 1st choice...if i were a forward iand i wasnt getin service surely i wud make it common knowledge in our feed back meeting...and try to adress it during training or indeed after traing stay back and work on finishing and timing and runs off the ball. and generally comunication to our link players(midfield)...they need a wake up call... a kick up da backside...they are not making it happen... they are waiting for it to happen...

[jrio]

Welshie, a mid table finish will result in MJ getting the boot. We've spent over £30 mil this season and if we don't at least get into the UEFA Cup and consolidate on our finish last year the writting will be on the wall. I don't condone this but I can't see it any other way.

It won't but a second season after that would really put the pressure on. Spurs can't afford to get straight back on the managerial merry-go-round. We've had far too many managers in the last 10 years.

[JJ]

(To be fair to Jenas he was supposedly our best player yesterday.)

He was, along with the fullbacks and you know what I think of him but he was the only one, including Teemu, who really looked like je wanted to take the game by the scruff of the neck.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, from what i saw he looked like he had alot more urgency about his game. Here's to hoping it's all upwards for him from here.

[RuFuS]

The back 4's ok and the forwards aint gettin no service so it's down to the midfield.
Teemu-Murphy-Zakora-Jenas is far to defensive with JJ being the only one remotely creative. A good MF away at OT, Anfield, Goonsville or Slumfordbridge.

With no lennon as an outlet. Lee or Ekkoto on the left MF would have given us better options as they would interchange positions. If it didn't work Lee could then be switched to the right to Link up with Chimbonda.

Late on in the game Hudds should have been on to give us a different option up front at set peices.

[jrio]

I just think Jol is a naturally cautious tactician (let's not forget he was a very defensive midfielder in his playing days) which would explain his love of Jenas. (To be fair to Jenas he was supposedly our best player yesterday.)

Not quite accurate, he was very strong and aggressive in his position as a ball-winning midfielder, but he didn't sit in front of a defence like many modern players do. His tactics are fairly uncomplicated but don't forget there were many games last season when we were losing and he didn't hesitate to make bold substitutions, including playing a large part of the second half at Boro with 4 strikers.

[choda]

Might I suggest we look at Musampa? He is a natural winger with pace....

Has he not got a club? He's good but not somebody I'd spend money on.

[jrio]

He had his moments at City but they were too few and he spent most of last season in central midfield.

[singapore spur]

i didnt get to see any pre season games but the results seemed impressive , the match reports sounded optimistic , so can of those that saw these games tell me what has changed , apart from a few new additions which should only in theory have made us stronger .

[Welsh Spur]

Welshie, a mid table finish will result in MJ getting the boot. We've spent over £30 mil this season and if we don't at least get into the UEFA Cup and consolidate on our finish last year the writting will be on the wall. I don't condone this but I can't see it any other way.

Winning the UEFA or FA will get us back into the UEFA cup! So then a mid table finish wouldn't be as hard to take!

[spurs61]

i didnt get to see any pre season games but the results seemed impressive , the match reports sounded optimistic , so can of those that saw these games tell me what has changed , apart from a few new additions which should only in theory have made us stronger .

That's a good question singapore, I watched them play against Sociedad pre-season and the team did look fairly disjointed especially the service to the frontmen. The big difference is that during most of the pre-season games we played with wide men. Against Inter we played a 4-3-3 formation and against Sociedad it was a straight forward 4-4-2, but the midfielders all had set roles which they do not have at the moment.

[bocayid]

Firstly let me say what an excellent forum this is.I know Martin Jol has brought the club a fair way over the last 18 months or so and I like the big man a lot.However we musn't let one relatively good season blinker our view or stifle debate.I dont believe we know what system we want to play or are suited to playing.Jol has bought a lot of players in,many with undoubted ability and who will given time help us climb the league.HoweverI believe players were bought in and Jol hoped a system of play would become apparent,rather than have an idea and bring players in to make it work.I don't doubt Jols character as a man manager or his quiet and dignified leadership but managers come in many guises and have different strenghths.mayb Jol isnt as tactically aware as we all hope he is?..rememer he's had one good season with us.and we as spurs fans do get carried away at times...don't forget there were games last year that we were less than convincing in ..but managed to fight and scrap for the points.I like Jol and hope he has more in his locker..what Im not convinced in our strike force..all have their attributes..but personally i dont see a consistent 20+ goal scorer in amongst them...berby is as yet an unknown in the league..Keane is trying to fill in the gaps..mido..im sorry but not convinced over the long haul and defoe despite his promise and undoubted ability..i think will drift from club to club as unfullfilled potential...of course they need service..but chances hav been created and we have been woeful in front of goals...

[pontypoolyid]

as a stop gap how about playing salty at rb,chimbo on the r wing, lee at lb, eketto lw zak and hudd in the middle we'd have the same back 4 as last year who should know each others game and what i've seen of the other two players thay like to attack and have plenty of pace. just a thought keep the faith COYS;)

[choda]

Spur 61 you persuaded me out of the christmas tree foramtion being best for us now but I'm kinda persuading myself back inot it... maybe.

It works just like the diamond but you just have two players in the hole. In this case Defoe and Keane, Defoe in the right channel and Keane in the left one.

Think of how hard they would be to pick up with Berb in front of them? And you could have Zokora and Murphy spreading out when we have the ball, the full backs bombing on and Davids or the Hudd playing the sitter.

The way Zokora is playing now to be honest I'm not sure Davids is essential anymore (given that he is past his best) and Hudd would give us that deep lying playmaker (which I love).

Davids however is still essential to have in the squad as he is the only one I've seen this year every game who is trying to get the rest of the team to pass it forward where possible and keep the ball rolling and also working his balls off to win it back when we don't have it. He understands what the team needs to be doing. We need his experience around the team at least.

In my view Jenas played much better in the last game and was also trying to do that which was great to see. He has got the ability he just needs to stand up and keep doing the right things and his confidence will grow. I'd put money that Davids has had a big impression on his improvement last game and I hope it continues.

My only concern with the diamond or the christmas tree is that the width can be lacking as it requires a lot of running from other positions to give it and a lot of times it is just not enough. So I'd also propose the Barca system of playing Keane forward left and Defoe forward right as another option.

I think both are worth a try given our problems in midfield and lack of wide personnel and attacking/creative mids right now. That's what I would try at least and with those players. Wing backs may be another option worth looking at.

[MiloMinderbinder]

as a stop gap how about playing salty at rb,chimbo on the r wing, lee at lb, eketto lw zak and hudd in the middle we'd have the same back 4 as last year who should know each others game and what i've seen of the other two players thay like to attack and have plenty of pace. just a thought keep the faith COYS;)

ha ha ha ha ha ha, should have been on the jokes page mate, play Stalteri, good one. :p

[Spur]

http://www.spurs.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=31384

Parts of this article neatly sum up Spurs fans.

[JJ]

http://www.spurs.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=31384

Parts of this article neatly sum up Spurs fans.

Entirely.

I can't believe that there are fans calling for Jol to be sacked.

[Spur]

It's shocking. The other thing that I find shocking about us lot is how quickly we are to judge something when it goes wrong - such as the lack of left winger - even though last season we were challenging for 4th without one...

Ok, so maybe times have changed but still.

The only thing I feel we can say is about our lack of goals at the moment. Chances ARE being made and ARE NOT being taken when they should. Whilst saying this I am quite aware that last season we were never a free-scoring team.

I'm trying hard to think of a player getting a hat-trick last season. All our goals were worked hard for or pieces of brilliance and that now we just can't do it for some reason. I just can't put my finger on it.

[JJ]

Yeah, i know what you mean. It simply isn't possible that not buying a left winger would make us worse.

I think though that the 3 strikers playing at the moment are confidence players, and if they're not scoring goals their heads drops a bit, they end up forcing shots in the hope that they might score, and eventually we end up scoring nothing.

I'm thinking/hoping that once 1 or 2 goals start to go in, the team as a whole grows in confidence and just plays more adventurous and attacking football.

[Welsh Spur]

Let's make no bones about it we're missing Lennon. We haven't got time to wait for the goals to come; any longer and this 'crisis' being talked about will start to become a reality.

[MiloMinderbinder]

[QUOTE=choda;22838]Spur 61 you persuaded me out of the christmas tree foramtion being best for us now but I'm kinda persuading myself back inot it... maybe.

It works just like the diamond but you just have two players in the hole. In this case Defoe and Keane, Defoe in the right channel and Keane in the left one.

I love Barca (how classy is the Unicef thing!) and would love to see Spurs emulate them, but there are problems with trying to play like them. Defoe is a lazy ****er who is only interested in himself and you need a player who is prepared to work at times to fulfill the role you'd like to assign to him. It never ceases to amaze me that he will close down from the front for England but not Spurs, speaks volumes. :mad:

The real issue with the Xmas tree is that it would leave you massively exposed down the flanks to a decent counter attacking team, especially in EPL where virtually every team has pace down the sides.

Of course there is always the argument that Barca have truly world class player...........we don't, go on play a little game how many of our 1st XI would get into their 1st team - King, Robbo, and err that's it. :(

Oh and as a final aside, Murphy should never ever ever play for us again, the guy is like that bit you get at the end of an Ikea flat pack, you've no idea what it's for and you don't know how it got there.;)

[JJ]

Let's make no bones about it we're missing Lennon. We haven't got time to wait for the goals to come; any longer and this 'crisis' being talked about will start to become a reality.

Not having Lennon is forcing us to play football, and it seems as if a few of players have forgotten how.

[choda]

Yeah, i know what you mean. It simply isn't possible that not buying a left winger would make us worse.

I think though that the 3 strikers playing at the moment are confidence players, and if they're not scoring goals their heads drops a bit, they end up forcing shots in the hope that they might score, and eventually we end up scoring nothing.

I'm thinking/hoping that once 1 or 2 goals start to go in, the team as a whole grows in confidence and just plays more adventurous and attacking football.

But let's face it we played through problems last year. Problems on the left wing and the full backs were poor, Lee wasn't settled or probably big enough and salty was just rubbish.

We can't keep doing that. We've sorted the full backs and with the injuries now I think we need to play three strikers. We also need to give it time.

I think we have to get used to playing without Carrick, he's not a big loss overall but it is hurting us as an adjustment. He was the one last year who got us passing it.

He passed it forward where possible and kept the ball rolling. Nobody is the main man for us right now and the team as a whole is not doing it either. It's like they don't do it unless there is a main guy to lead the way.

Davids knows it and is trying to do it, but passing is not his main suit and he can't be a one man show in that regard. He just wants the whole team to do it and spring them into action.

That's how I see it at least. We have to look at manu and arsenal and how they pass it. That is the spurs way. We'd never function the chelsea way, it's not us and it is not good long term for anyone either in my opinion.

[spurs61]

Spur 61 you persuaded me out of the christmas tree foramtion being best for us now but I'm kinda persuading myself back inot it... maybe.

Huh?:confused: You've confused me now! I agreed with you that I'd also play a diamond(ish) formation, I like the structure and the fact that it negates our lack of widemen. The only difference between us is that I wouldn't play Keane and Defoe together as a regular starting line up. I would, however, have played exactly your formation against Bolton, Everton and Fulham as it certainly poses many questions to the solid back lines we had to compete against. With Berbi supported by Defoe and Keane the two centre halves have a nightmare deciding whether to man mark and leave a gap or to mark zonally and allow the deep forwards time on the ball. Against teams such as Man U, I'd go for either Keane or Defoe behind a big man and supported from further deep by someone like Tainio or Ghaly (or even Jenas when Aaron's fit).

[JJ]

But let's face it we played through problems last year. We can't keep doing that. I think we have to get used to playing without Carrick aswell, he's not a big loss overall but it is hurting us as an adjustment. He was the one last year who got us passing it.

He passed it forward where possible and kept the ball rolling. Nobody is the main man for us right now and he team as a whole is not doing it either. It's like they don't do it unless there is a main guy to lead the way.

Davids knows it and is trying to do it, but passing is not his main suit and he can't be a one man show in that regard. He just wants the whole team to do it and spring them into action.

That's how I see it at least. We have to lool at manu and arsenal and how they pass it.

Oh i agree, Carrick going has hit us hard. Not so much for the long term, but in the short term it has meant that our entire system has had to change.

I think we need to start playing Huddlestone, he is the only player in the team with a passing range that can match Carricks.

Davids has been quality as far as leading by example and making the effort, but he clearly isn't the man for that job.

[MiloMinderbinder]

I think we need to start playing Huddlestone, he is the only player in the team with a passing range that can match Carricks.

Hudd must play, the boy has got it all apart from pace, has the potential to be an infinetly better all round player than Carrick, the only way for himto get better is to play at the sharp end.

[RuFuS]

Let's make no bones about it we're missing Lennon.

Does that make us a 1 man team ?
If it does, that MancJock will be back with his Cq book @ Xmas. :mad:
He'll have to replace Giggs @ some point.

[Spur]

Everything used to go through Carrick - whilst his stas weren't impressvie everything used to go through him. Logic would argue that the next best thing would be to play the player most like him and start making everything go through him.

In that case it would be Huddlestone, as he has that magnificent passing ability that Carrick has and has a powerful shot and reading of the game that I think in time will easily be better than Carricks. Not to mention if I were up against Huddlestone i'd be scared shitless as his sheer presence demands respect.

[choda]

The thing about it is though, the team should be able to do it even without a great passer in there. Arsenal have done it without a deep lying playmaker. Silva can't pass it five yards and big paddy was a great player but passing wasn't his biggest quality.

I know they've fabregas now and he's a lovely player but you can do it as a team without having a main passer in there. We should in time work this one out. If we don't you have to question MJ.

I mean we can't get too reliant on Huddlestone either, he's got great potential and will be a superstar but you have to learn to pass it really well as a team. You can't be saying this guy has to play or we will always be passing it sideways and not keeping the ball moving.

[choda]

Huh?:confused: You've confused me now! I agreed with you that I'd also play a diamond(ish) formation, I like the structure and the fact that it negates our lack of widemen. The only difference between us is that I wouldn't play Keane and Defoe together as a regular starting line up. I would, however, have played exactly your formation against Bolton, Everton and Fulham as it certainly poses many questions to the solid back lines we had to compete against. With Berbi supported by Defoe and Keane the two centre halves have a nightmare deciding whether to man mark and leave a gap or to mark zonally and allow the deep forwards time on the ball. Against teams such as Man U, I'd go for either Keane or Defoe behind a big man and supported from further deep by someone like Tainio or Ghaly (or even Jenas when Aaron's fit).

Oh right I thought you didn't like my christmas tree formation at all. Go back to post #7.

I maybe agree with your there about the big teams but I would use it regularly until lennon and malbranque are back or even just lennon. It's not that attacking and god knows we need to attack more. You'd still only have the equivalent of two attacking mids and two strikers.

[suBerb]

I think that we should play with two DM only vs the top 4 teams. Against all other teams we should play only with 1 DM and maybe one box-to-box midfielder. So, my team vs weaker sides is:

---------Robbo

Chimbo---King--Daws---Ekotto

----------Zokora/Davids

Lennon----Jenas---Malbranque
--------------Keane
---------Berbatov

My team vs Arse and the likes:

---------Robbo

Chimbo---King--Daws---Ekotto

--------Zokora---Davids

Lennon-----------Malbranque
--------------Keane
--------Berbatov


Hopefully Lennon and Steed will be ready in 6-7 weeks.

If we are to challenge for a CL spot, we have to improve two positions. We need a quality attacking CM, someone like Rosicky or Fabregas, and a top LW.

Jenas is not a genuine attacking CM and Malbranque is not a top LM/LW.

[TomMcLaren]

I'd just like to add that you guys have faaar too much time on your hands.

[Spur]

I'm shocked that you mentioned two Arsenal players as players we need.

[choda]

I think that we should play with two DM only vs the top 4 teams. Against all other teams we should play only with 1 DM and maybe one box-to-box midfielder. So, my team vs weaker sides is:

---------Robbo

Chimbo---King--Daws---Ekotto

----------Zokora/Davids

Lennon----Jenas---Malbranque
--------------Keane
---------Berbatov

My team vs Arse and the likes:

---------Robbo

Chimbo---King--Daws---Ekotto

--------Zokora---Davids

Lennon-----------Malbranque
--------------Keane
--------Berbatov


Hopefully Lennon and Steed will be ready in 6-7 weeks.

If we are to challenge for a CL spot, we have to improve two positions. We need a quality attacking CM, someone like Rosicky or Fabregas, and a top LW.

Jenas is not a genuine attacking CM and Malbranque is not a top LM/LW.

Yea that is what I would do but I think Zokora can play box to box aswell... like he did against prague. I don't fancy Jenas in the team when all are fit or even now to be honest. I think he's poor man's gerrard. And I'd possibly switch the wingers if I didn't think malbranque was working on the left. Lennon is almost as good out there as he is on the right.

I think we just need a left winger and we'd be okay, but I do like attacking mids who can also put their foot in and work hard, Scholes/Ballack is my ideal attacking mid. And it would add something, but I don't think it is essential, many good sides have had two wingers a dm and an up and downer.

Actaully I'm fairly confident that when we have steed and lennon we'll be cl material, but one of them injured causes problems for us. As a result we do need a winger and for god sake just buy a top left footed winger.

[suBerb]

I'm shocked that you mentioned two Arsenal players as players we need.

The fact that they are arse players does not make them worse...SUCH players would do a great job for us. I don't delude myself that our attacking midfieders are as good as the scum's...We have only one (potentially) top AM - Lennon, whereas they have 3. Jenas, Tainio in the role of LM, Murphy, Ghaly are decent players but not good enough for the top 4 teams. Why should they be good for us? How could they help us finish 4th? Well, last season they almost did it but the scum had an awful season in Premiership...This season they started bad again but beat manure away without Henry and Persi...

[Spur]

I don't disagree, I was just saying that out of every team in the world you picked Arsenal.

Could have done better. Like by picking any other team other than them.

[JJ]

I don't disagree, I was just saying that out of every team in the world you picked Arsenal.

Could have done better. Like by picking any other team other than them.

Well, if passing game is to be considered. Arsenal are one of the better teams when it comes to that.


Sadly...

[choda]

Well to be honest when I think about spurs I usually think about them ****ers soon after.

Not only are they our rivals they are also our main rivals in the league aswell. I'm consumed with wanting to beat them.

Comparisons are inevitable and a decent yardstick since the teams were so close last year and I'd say will be again this year. But Jol really needs to get the finger out for that to happen.

[gazzaG8]

Well to be honest when I think about spurs I usually think about them ****ers soon after.

Not only are they our rivals they are also our main rivals in the league aswell. I'm consumed with wanting to beat them.

Comparisons are inevitable and a decent yardstick since the teams were so close last year and I'd say will be again this year. But Jol really needs to get the finger out for that to happen.



I think we all are consumed with wanting to beat them.
I think saturday at Anfied will be a turning point, i really think
a well earned point or maybe all 3 should be enough to kick start
our season