Brazil last night

[spurs61]

I hope BMJ was down at the Lane last night. Brazil gave a consumate example of how to play without a natural left footer in midfield. OK, granted the opposition wasn't great and it was a new line up but their tactics were exactly that which should be employed by us. Anyone else have the same view/disagree?

[MiloMinderbinder]

Didn't see the game, don't have to though, it was Brazil who are to be fair pretty good and Wales who to be fair aren't. Nuff said.

[spurs61]

That's not the point and you know it. The standard of the opposition doesn't come into it. I'm merely noting the stability and balance of a team sans a left footer.

[MiloMinderbinder]

au contraire, the standard of the opponent is all important. I'd back our lot to beat Azerbijan without any left footers, I wouldn't be so sure if they were playing Italy.

[JJ]

Yet they did the same against Argentina.

[MiloMinderbinder]

Argentina also play with a lack of width, only Sorin could be said to provide any width and he plays as an attacking fullback most of the time.

[JJ]

Yeah but they beat 2 teams of different style and quality convincingly, which would imply that the system works, regardless of opponent quality or tactics, which is the point of adopting that style.

[Spur]

Not only that but the poorer opposition got the better of the two results, so then you could put that in the 'opposition doesnt matter' corner.

[MiloMinderbinder]

Agreed, but it was Brazil, you cannot seriously be arguing that we have the same quality at our disposal. And TBF I have yet to see Jol make any real change to style and formation, certainly during the game. Plus both games were only friendlies, we saw the huge lack of balance in both the Brazil and England sides at the World Cup exploited by tactically savy teams - left footer on the left side are a must not a preference.

Cest magnifique mais c'est nas pas la guerre.

[Spur]

Who did Italy have on the left?

[MiloMinderbinder]

Italy are one of those funny teams who get their left back forward (Grosso or Zambrotta who is really right footed) into advanced positions, this is due to the playing guys like Camorenesi who are right footed who cuts in allowing vast amounts of space for the left back to exploit.

My mine point regarding a left footer is that he can cross the ball first time without beating his man this is nigh on impossible for a right footer playing on the left.

[JJ]

Agreed, but it was Brazil, you cannot seriously be arguing that we have the same quality at our disposal. And TBF I have yet to see Jol make any real change to style and formation, certainly during the game. Plus both games were only friendlies, we saw the huge lack of balance in both the Brazil and England sides at the World Cup exploited by tactically savy teams - left footer on the left side are a must not a preference.

Cest magnifique mais c'est nas pas la guerre.

It's not a must by any stretch of the imagination. Left wingers are very rare, good ones anyway.

[MiloMinderbinder]

see my post above JJ re left winger, I would say that I have never seen an effective right footed left winger. right I have got to do some work now,

[JJ]

Which is why if you can't find a left winger, you don't play with one. That's why Ekotto is encouraged to get up the pitch, same as Sorin.

You don't buy a left footed left winger if you can't find a good one purely because you need one, or you end up with Jason Wilcox.

[MiloMinderbinder]

I agree there is a dearth of good left wingers around, and I agree can't find a good one don't bother, but that's not the point. We have tried playing without a left winger and it just doesn't work as we play with a right winger and three central mids. the lack of balance is quite flabbergasting and the space afforded the opponents right winger is at times frightening, we are lucky that Benny A-E is pretty solid both going forward and back but he can't do it all. Matty Ethrington anyone?! Right now I really am off to do some work.........for the time being at any rate

[JJ]

Oh yeah, the system isn't right. That much is clear, but i don't think getting a makeshift left winger will solve that. It's the 3 centre mids that are the problem.

[Chinaman]

A certain Dave Thomas back in the 70s was highly effective
as a right-footed left winger.

[spurs61]

We've gone a bit off tangent here boys. The debate is not whether we need a left footer, we don't have one and need to formulate a strategy to negate our loss.

What I was getting at is that Brazil do not play with wide men and allow their full backs to raid forward with impunity, safe in the knowledge that one of the central midfielders will cover any gaps left behind. This whole systems hinges upon two factors; the first being a competant and disciplined defensive midfielder of which we have at least three. The second ingredient is essential, namely a creative but hard working midfielder who gets forward to support the front men and also has license to drift around the pitch looking for area to exploit.

As far as I can see we have the personnel to play this system but it remains to be seen if the players could cope with specific roles. I think we have the creative players to fulfill the "Kaka" role in Tainio and Malbranque however whether they could adapt to the role is uncertain.

This system would give the side the balance that has been sorely lacking for a number of seasons and would also allow Lennon some freedom around the pitch as well;

Robinson

Chimbonda Dawson King Assou-Ekotto

<<<<Zokora Davids>>>>

<<<Taino/Malbranque>>>


Lennon

Keane/Defoe Berbatov/Mido

[MiloMinderbinder]

WTF, the problem is no left winger, that is not something that can be worked round, unless of course you are proposing either 3-5-2 or 4-3-3 neither of which cuts the mustard in the prem without a left footer for the reasons outlined above.

Whilst I am here, a) who the hell was Dave Thomas b) he was playing in the 70's, the game had modernised beyond all recognition since then.

[spurs61]

Just 'cos you're left footed does not make you the ****ing oracle on all things left footed. Read what has been written rather than adding your twopence worth. You're being a totally obtuse, would you like us to invent a left winger to satisfy our requirements or are you going to accept that we don't have one and need to address the situation with the resources we have rather than those which we want.

Your ascertation that the game as changed beyond recognition is ridiculous. It's the same game with roughly the same rules. What makes you think that a right footed player could succeed in playing wide left 30 years ago but not now? Presumably any modern player will be fitter, more skillful and more tactically aware than his latter day fellow professional and thus be more adept at filling a left sided role?

[Chinaman]

Dave Thomas was a full English international. Despite the game having undergone some evolution, it is still basically the same thing. In the 60s and beyond, every team played 2 wingers. In advocating a Left winger, aren't we going back in time as well?

There is no perfect team formation, as someone pointed out that England won the WC without a winger; and after that the wingless formation was for a time seen to be a better evolution than leaving 2 wide men idle when under pressure.

So whether we play with one, two or no wingers, the basic thing is that we must have players who can play the game as the manager wants to play; and the manager must be innovative enough with his tactics to surprise the opposition.

[MiloMinderbinder]

it's al about balance period, no balance no chance, I think you would all agree that Lennon is a must, so based on the fact he's an out and out right winger you have to have a balance down the left it really is that simple.

As for the moderinsation of the game, it's down to analysis do you really think that the opposing fullback doesn;t know what Joe Cole is about to do, he rubs his hands in glee as he prepares to shift "his man" on to the centre halves. And you make my point for me, players are fitter, stronger and quicker, therefore players have to be comfortable in their allocated positions as they get milliseconds on the ball not enough time to change feet and balance, you have to shift and go. The average amount of time a player gets the ball for in the Prem per game is 20 secs each, fact.

[JJ]

Balance doesn't mean having a left winger because you have a right one. Balance is adjusting so you can still use the left hand side, be it an attacking full back or striker who pulls out wide.

[MiloMinderbinder]

disagree that's reaching a temporary equilibrium, balance is a permanent thing.

Can I just say that it's refreshing to share differing views without everyone resorting to slagging eachother off unlike some forums I could mention (vital):)

[JJ]

I agree that a balanced team would definately be most desirable, but looking around the world there are very few teams in the world that can achieve that, yet alot of them are still very successful.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't aim to achieve that, but we can still be very successful without it.

[Chinaman]

That's why I haven't left since I joined, despite the original board which I belong coming back under new administration. I must add that THFC1882 is very much like this one in which you can say your piece without people shouting at you.

[JJ]

That's why I haven't left since I joined, despite the original board which I belong coming back under new administration. I must add that THFC1882 is very much like this one in which you can say your piece without people shouting at you.

Which is how it should be :D

I don't consider you a football fan if you're not open to other points of view.

[MiloMinderbinder]

Oh I totally agree that balance is akin to the holy grail of footy, but I would argue what constitues success, lets take that last couple of years: Barca - balanced succesful. Real - unbalanced not succesful. Man U/Chelsea - balanced succesful. Scum - unbalanced not succesful (I won't hear arguments against this one) Juve (until recently) balanced succesful. AC Milan unbalanced not succesful these are just examples and I am going on their first choice team.

[Chinaman]

Yes, even a Gooner's if he doesn't belittle us.

[JJ]

Oh I totally agree that balance is akin to the holy grail of footy, but I would argue what constitues success, lets take that last couple of years: Barca - balanced succesful. Real - unbalanced not succesful. Man U/Chelsea - balanced succesful. Scum - unbalanced not succesful (I won't hear arguments against this one) Juve (until recently) balanced succesful. AC Milan unbalanced not succesful these are just examples and I am going on their first choice team.

I disagree a bit with Barca, they have Ronaldinho on the left who cuts in and Guily on the right who is much more of a winger.

[spurs61]

I disagree a bit with Barca, they have Ronaldinho on the left who cuts in and Guily on the right who is much more of a winger.

Actually this aids your case JJ. Ronaldinho is predominantley right footed but plays on the left and yet KingKeane would argue that Barca has a balanced side.

You can't have it both ways KingKeane.

[JJ]

Actually this aids your case JJ. Ronaldinho is predominantley right footed but plays on the left and yet KingKeane would argue that Barca has a balanced side.

You can't have it both ways KingKeane.

Yeah that's what i was saying.

Then again though, it's not as if Ronaldinho is just any right footed "left winger"...

[Spur]

Leo Messi.

Plays on the right but is left footed. BAM

[singapore spur]

it gets on my tits a bit all this bollox about finding a left winger . when you think about it these are professional footballers that spend months , years being coached and trained 5/6 days a week , and yet so many players are restricted to one foot .
they should all be able to cross , shoot , dribble with both feet , anything else is just bullshit .
we seem a lot more restricted in our players ability to switch positions in the u.k and to be comfortable there , thats why the guys arguing against benny playing left mid or wing surprises me a bit . i dont think european coaches or players , or south american have any such reservations , they seem comfortable all over the park , with maybe the exception of the germans who seem a lot more our style in football as in many other cultural aspects .
im not offering this as a reason why we havent achieved any major success as a nation for 40 years but its got to be an important factor .
ffs i consider myself predominantly right footed , but p[layed most of my when younger footie left midfield , center back , or left back , pace cant be taught ( though it can be improoved a bit ) but verything else can . wasnt it jimmy greaves who wasnt allowed by his dad to use his right foot until his left was just as good , tying his right foot up or somethng like

sorry rant over

[MiloMinderbinder]

I see what you're saying re left footers, I think the crux of the matter is the lack of kids playing footy day in day out and the lack of coaching at the "grass roots" of the game. The S.Americans and Africans especially know that by and large there is only one way out of the cycle of poverty which proliforates those continents, the kids play all day, usually with a makeshift ball on a makeshift pitch, this improves their skill levels and their propensity to use their weaker foot. Our kids just play on the Playstation, when was the last itme you saw a mass kickaround in the park?

And look if you want to tie kids up do it in your own time.

[JJ]

Leo Messi.

Plays on the right but is left footed. BAM

Yeah but that is specifically so he can cut in. He's not a winger either.

[MiloMinderbinder]

hmmm If you had a left footer on the right and vice versa that would still be balance of sorts, it may not be the traditional way of doing things, but interestingly I believe that this may be the way for us to resolve the lack of goals from the midfield which is probably more of an issue than the dearth of left wingers.

[JJ]

hmmm If you had a left footer on the right and vice versa that would still be balance of sorts, it may not be the traditional way of doing things, but interestingly I believe that this may be the way for us to resolve the lack of goals from the midfield which is probably more of an issue than the dearth of left wingers.

Oh i definately agree. It is balance, although it may seem unorthadox.

[Spur]

Leo can be a winger. Great player he is.

It seems ordinary for wingers to swap over now in matches proving a bit of all these little arguments right. I only wish it was something we could do, perhaps our management's thinking on player's positions is rather old fashioned maybe. But then why continually play the best players instead of the best team...even if that means some being out of position.

[Keanoldinho]

Messi and Ronaldinho are both 2 footed players and both 2 of the best players in the world, so you can't really use them in an argument because they'd look class were ever you played them