Match Thread: ENGLAND vs Ze Germanzzzzzz

[TURKISH]

Talk about the game in here girls.

http://www.yotufutbol.com/contenido/europa/inglaterra/paul%20gascoigne/paulgascoigne3.jpg

http://www.footballitaliano.co.uk/images/articles/gazzaengland.jpg

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00023/sheprobson3_516x350_23156a.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/02/19/article-1150365-0043511800000258-25_468x533.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/04/02/article-1166830-0032C7AC00000258-494_468x551.jpg

http://kevingill.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/pearce.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/09/10/article-1054188-008C449900000258-752_468x630.jpg

[olly27]

Quality pics Turk, particularly the Terry Butcher one...luv it. Beat that John Terry!

Think Capello will line up the same, but wouldn't be surprised to see Ledley back in.

He still may be tempted to field 5 in midfield in an attempt to get more control of the game but will probably go with what we saw last time out which I would agree with. If he does pack the midfield you could see Lennon on the right with Milner on the left.

I am going for 1-1 in normal time, with Gerrard scoring - and Lennon coming on to set up the winner in extra time - Rooney getting his account up and running. Lennon could be a huge asset as an impact sub in this game with tired legs to exploit.

2-1 England after extra time.

[TURKISH]

Qulality pics Turk, particularly the Terry Butcher one...luv it. Beat that John Terry!

Think Capello will line up the same, but wouldn't be surprised to see Ledley back in.

He still may be tempted to field 5 in midfield in an attempt to get more control of the game but will probably go with what we saw last time out which I would agree with. If he does pack the midfield you could see Lennon on the right with Milner on the left.

I am going for 1-1 in normal time, with Gerrard scoring - and Lennon coming on to set up the winner in extra time - Rooney getting his account up and running. Lennon could be a huge asset as an impact sub in this game with tired legs to exploit.

2-1 England after extra time.


I'm gonna watch One Night In Turin again, I've been listening to world in motion all week I'm buzzing.

[olly27]

I'm gonna watch One Night In Turin again, I've been listening to world in motion all week I'm buzzing.

Weird, was thinking exactly the same thing when I woke up this morning. I watched it last saturday night and a few beers tonight I'll watch it again to get me rightly up for it.

[TURKISH]

Germany destroyed a poor Aussie team, but at least they put four past them and looked good. They lost to Switzerland 1.0 but with ten men they still looked the better team and in there final group game they lost to Ghana the pride of Africa at the moment.

Germany are there for the taking, how many of there players would get into our starting lineup? Apart from Lahm and Otzil they don't look particulary great. I honestly believe we are the better team but thats only if we turn up, defensively we are dodgy and have done since the warm up games.

King is too much of a risk so imo Upson should keep his place, Milner on the right and he is someone you can trust. Johnson is a liability, a very poor RB and still can't fathom 15m spent on him by Liverpool when they already had a good RB. The boy can't defend and at this level you will get found out.

Rooney needs to get that break which will give him that boost, Lampard is putting in a shift and working hard but we need him getting forward and supporting the attack at the right stage.

We need to play with a high tempo and don't force the play, there is no rush keep passing the ball about and space will open.

2.1 England Defoe/Rooney and Terry to win it for us with a header.

[Gino Ginelli]

Screw that, I'm watching the 66 final and the 5-1 in Munich again!! :biggrin:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3-A-IxGbIqs/Ru6zzbKKX5I/AAAAAAAAAMo/XEMPTfRgI0o/s400/bobbymoore2.jpg

[TURKISH]

Screw that, I'm watching the 66 final and the 5-1 in Munich again!! :biggrin:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3-A-IxGbIqs/Ru6zzbKKX5I/AAAAAAAAAMo/XEMPTfRgI0o/s400/bobbymoore2.jpg

Also watch the video for World in motion, goosebumps mate. :tongue:

[Gino Ginelli]

Ha ha, you do know what happened in Italia 90 don't you? :wink:

I'm actually a bit jealous of the enthusiasm you'll be feeling, I was like that in France '98 and Euro 2000.

I wouldn't mind a bit of that tournament tomorrow actually, especially with the Alan Shearer header! Hope we're in red too, I don't think we've lost to them in red before!

I have to say though, no matter what happens tomorrow, I am officially loving this tournament now, this is the best one I think I've seen since Mexico '86.

[TURKISH]

Ha ha, you do know what happened in Italia 90 don't you? :wink:

I'm actually a bit jealous of the enthusiasm you'll be feeling, I was like that in France '98 and Euro 2000.

I wouldn't mind a bit of that tournament tomorrow actually, especially with the Alan Shearer header! Hope we're in red too, I don't think we've lost to them in red before!

I have to say though, no matter what happens tomorrow, I am officially loving this tournament now, this is the best one I think I've seen since Mexico '86.

I just love the romantic story of Italia 90, the underdogs who played beautiful football against top team in Germany and Holland. Also seeing Lineker, Waddle and Gazza all do so well for us. I just loved everything about that tournament from the manager, the players, the football we played in the tournament and how the national side united a whole nation.

Euro 96 was also special but for me France 98 was my first World cup and the most special for me. I remember it all so well and managed to watch most matches during the tournament. I remember the mexico player Blanco doing that jumping skill, the Ronaldo hype, Gazza being left out by Hoddle and of course the top players. Remember Sukur?

World cup 2002 was horrible I didn't like the way Sven bottled it against Brazil.

[KevSpur]

Rooney and Lumplard start, and play the whole game, 3-0 to the Germans.

[olly27]

Rooney and Lumplard start, and play the whole game, 3-0 to the Germans.

a bundle of joy you are...

[KevSpur]

a bundle of joy you are...


Oh all right.
2 World Wars and 1 World Cup, of course we'll smash them.
There, is that better than an honest opinion ?

[olly27]

Oh all right.
2 World Wars and 1 World Cup, of course we'll smash them.
There, is that better than an honest opinion ?

One extreme to the other there....black and white thinker are we!

[KevSpur]

One extreme to the other there....black and white thinker are we!

No grey areas tomorrow mate, 1 team goes through and 1 team goes out.

And if Rooney and Lampard play , England are out.
But brave Capello will no doubt take off Milner and Barry when we're 2-0 down. Can't touch Rooney and Lampard of course.

[TURKISH]

No grey areas tomorrow mate, 1 team goes through and 1 team goes out.

And if Rooney and Lampard play , England are out.
But brave Capello will no doubt take off Milner and Barry when we're 2-0 down. Can't touch Rooney and Lampard of course.

I understand how you feel, actually you sound like me three weeks ago but I've been caught up in all the hype especially watching one night in turin and world in motion 5 times everyday.

[olly27]

No grey areas tomorrow mate, 1 team goes through and 1 team goes out.

And if Rooney and Lampard play , England are out.
But brave Capello will no doubt take off Milner and Barry when we're 2-0 down. Can't touch Rooney and Lampard of course.

I see where your coming from but I tell you what Ghana really got at the Germans and created several great chances, they just weren't ruthless enough.

If we are brave enough and play with confidence and courage we will beat them, the class and experience will come through.

Rooney will come good tomorrow.

A stat on Lampard he has, over the last few world cups, had 33 shots with no goals.

[Gino Ginelli]

Davor Suker was immense, what a striker! Can't believe he ended his career at fecking Highbury!

We were good in 2002, eased the group stages, smashed Denmark and got an early goal against Brazil. We were undone by a ridiculously in form Ronaldinho in the end. 1/4 finals, essentially the top in the world, is no mean feat 2 tournaments in a row for a team that's only ever been to the semi final stage on 2 occasions. I think England as a footballing nation get's really over hyped by our media tbh.

Sven was conservative and stifled what creativity we may have had, but in the end he got us to 3 consecutive tournaments and their 1/4 finals in a row. Not even Bobby managed that!

[Gino Ginelli]

Lampard simply can't do for England what he does for Chelsea because he has to do what Ballack or Essien does for him, the midfield distributor. Lampards passing range isn't that great, his value benefits from those players. And seeing as (imo) Gerrard is a much better midfield general than he his (but still no crafted player, just an overpowered midfield clogger) Lampards worth is questionable.

Take Frank out, put Gerrard central and give Joe Cole his left wing berth and I see England playing so much more freely.

[olly27]

Lampard simply can't do for England what he does for Chelsea because he has to do what Ballack or Essien does for him, the midfield distributor. Lampards passing range isn't that great, his value benefits from those players. And seeing as (imo) Gerrard is a much better midfield general than he his (but still no crafted player, just an overpowered midfield clogger) Lampards worth is questionable.

Take Frank out, put Gerrard central and give Joe Cole his left wing berth and I see England playing so much more freely.

Lampard needs a Drogba infront of him, England just dont play the way Frank is accustomed to and he cant feed off scraps around the edge of the box like he does at Chelsea or when he arrives late into the area to finish moves off, be it through a Drogba lay off or whatever.

Gerrard is a far more explosive and dynamic a player than Lampard is and for me was always the better of the two, never a doubt in my mind. Lampard benefits more from great players around him, were Gerrard has time and time again (at Club level) dragged Liverpool to another level.

Frank's goal scoring record for Chelsea is sensational and he just fits perfectly in that system with that personnel around him - no more so than Drogba, but he isn't adaptable, and isn't dynamic. Gerrard is due to being a better footballer - simple really, even if he is out of position on the left.

To be fair to Frank though he is playing in a more disciplined role which restricts his attacking prowess, so he is being professional - of course he is, but I do think he is more limited than Gerrard in terms of his skill set.

Capello wont start Cole from a defensive point of view either - sees him as a luxury player IMO - allbeit a very talented one, another reason for Gerrard getting the nod on the left, even though I agree in principle.

[TURKISH]

Lampard needs a Drogba infront of him, England just dont play the way Frank is accustomed to and he cant feed off scraps around the edge of the box like he does at Chelsea or when he arrives late into the area to finish moves off, be it through a Drogba lay off or whatever.

Gerrard is a far more explosive and dynamic a player than Lampard is and for me was always the better of the two, never a doubt in my mind. Lampard benefits more from great players around him, were Gerrard has time and time again (at Club level) dragged Liverpool to another level.

Frank's goal scoring record for Chelsea is sensational and he just fits perfectly in that system with that personnel around him - no more so than Drogba, but he isn't adaptable, and isn't dynamic. Gerrard is due to being a better footballer - simple really, even if he is out of position on the left.

Capello wont start Cole from a defensive point of view either - sees him as a luxury player IMO, another reason for Gerrard getting the nod on the left, even though I agree in principle.

Frank puts a shift in but his passing range just isn't great in tight areas, he as a system built round him which gives him license to go anhywhere on the pitch.

If Adam Johnson continues to improve he could become our left winger, how old is Frank? Time to stick Gerrard cm with Barry and try to bring the best out of Milner, Lennon and Rodwell.

[olly27]

Frank puts a shift in but his passing range just isn't great in tight areas, he as a system built round him which gives him license to go anhywhere on the pitch.

If Adam Johnson continues to improve he could become our left winger, how old is Frank? Time to stick Gerrard cm with Barry and try to bring the best out of Milner, Lennon and Rodwell.

He's 32 now I think. So I would say we should be thinking about the future now.

Frank definitely doesn't get forward to same effect as he does at Chelsea and that is because of the system and the personnel he has round him at Chelsea.

Agree with you Barry and Gerrard in the centre now, Frank definitely aint going to be involved at the next WC.

[TURKISH]

Come on ENGLAND!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/football_paul_gascoigne0s_career_in_pictures/img/3.jpg

[MarlowSpurs]

How fvcking far over the line was that!!!!!!!! Sepp Blater you cvnt thats your fault for not allowing goal line technology

[TURKISH]

Refs a ****, but we need to forget it 45 minutes to stay in this world cup.

Must say Upson has been shocking, Germany could be 4 up.

[MarlowSpurs]

Refs a ****, but we need to forget it 45 minutes to stay in this world cup.

Must say Upson has been shocking, Germany could be 4 up.

Terry has been just as bad

[TURKISH]

Terry has been just as bad


Still in utter shock that the linesman and ref failed to see that, from any angle that was clearly a goal.:angry:

If we somehow progress can you imagine what Messi and co will do to us?

[MarlowSpurs]

Capello you are a Class A CVNT

[TURKISH]

QUOTE=TURKISH;184779]Very impressed with Germany to the point I wish them all the best. Why? Because they are apparently missing there best player in Ballack but yet still crushed a side that we would no doubt struggle against. They passed the ball wonderfully, with a balanced side that loves to play for there country.

Why do we make it so hard for ourselves? I have come to the conclusion that we are very overrated and this is the poorest England side I have seen for years.

We have a team who are atheletes first and footballers second. We will really struggle, defensively we are slow and shaky against set pieces. We have a right back who doesn't know when to run or stay. He always runs to early which doesn't allow time for Lennon to set things up or try and beat his man.

Upfront we have a striker who can't score a goal for toffee which means more pressure for Rooney. Linekar had Beardsley, Shearer had Sheringham and Owen had himself... Honestly if Heskey brings the best out of Rooney then why hasn't Sir Alex brought him for United?

We need to play J.Cole and put Gerrard behind Rooney which will let Wayne get inbehind the defences. Then we always have the option of a Defoe or Crouch if we need a goal or an opening. If we don't have three in midfield then we will be overrun.

The squad we have now aren't great footballers, we once had a team who all knew how to pass the ball and move. Anderton could pass, Beckham, Ince, Gazza, Redknapp, Scholes, Merson ect ect ect.

We will struggle to score goals and we will struggle to keep clean sheets.[/QUOTE]

Roy Hodgson for England please.

[TURKISH]

Capello you are a Class A CVNT

And the players, utter disgrace.

[NDC123]

This is a wind up isnt it? Go 3-1 down with 20 mins to go so to try to save the game we take of a proven goalscorer & bring on Emile Heskey....

[TURKISH]

QUOTE=TURKISH;184779]Very impressed with Germany to the point I wish them all the best. Why? Because they are apparently missing there best player in Ballack but yet still crushed a side that we would no doubt struggle against. They passed the ball wonderfully, with a balanced side that loves to play for there country.

Why do we make it so hard for ourselves? I have come to the conclusion that we are very overrated and this is the poorest England side I have seen for years.

We have a team who are atheletes first and footballers second. We will really struggle, defensively we are slow and shaky against set pieces. We have a right back who doesn't know when to run or stay. He always runs to early which doesn't allow time for Lennon to set things up or try and beat his man.

Upfront we have a striker who can't score a goal for toffee which means more pressure for Rooney. Linekar had Beardsley, Shearer had Sheringham and Owen had himself... Honestly if Heskey brings the best out of Rooney then why hasn't Sir Alex brought him for United?

We need to play J.Cole and put Gerrard behind Rooney which will let Wayne get inbehind the defences. Then we always have the option of a Defoe or Crouch if we need a goal or an opening. If we don't have three in midfield then we will be overrun.

The squad we have now aren't great footballers, we once had a team who all knew how to pass the ball and move. Anderton could pass, Beckham, Ince, Gazza, Redknapp, Scholes, Merson ect ect ect.

We will struggle to score goals and we will struggle to keep clean sheets.

Roy Hodgson for England please.[/

[MarlowSpurs]

And the players, utter disgrace.

Only David James can hold his head high

[TURKISH]

Worst England side I have ever seen.

[KevSpur]

Rooney and Lumplard start, and play the whole game, 3-0 to the Germans.

Not far wrong then Ollie ?
Capello is a joke.

[peterc]

If Capello stays or goes, it won't make much difference, it's the players who are mainly to blame due to their lack of passion and determination. Germany were the much better team and deserved to win with such a result. BTW, linesman needs to go to specsaver. Had that goal been given, I still think that Germany would have come out winners. Defence was a complete joke, very poor. Johnson cannot defend, both Terry and Upson made a few errors, the only decent defender was Ashley Cole.

[olly27]

Not far wrong then Ollie ?
Capello is a joke.

Unfortunately you wern't far wrong. Devestated by the performance, nevermind we are out...the performance was just disgustingly bad. Need to calm down but the Germans were fantastic to the point of real jealousy. We just dont have an Ozil. But the way they play should be applauded and emulated, but we will struggle to emulate that sort of football - ever, if today is anything to go by.

When he brought Heskey on I didn't no whether to laugh or cry, the most bizzare substitution I have ever seen.

The goal that crossed that line matters **** all, we were literally Mullered...

The players didn't perform and Capello refused to play our best players in their correct positions which couldn't of helped. But ultimately they are not good enough collectively.

I did mention playing 5 in midfield to get more control of the game - but whatever we are not good enough.

[TURKISH]

The problems go through grass roots, to a foreign manager, too many prem games, english players attitudes and putting square pegs in round holes.

Honestly Johnson, Upson, Barry, Lampard, Gerrard, SWP, J.Cole, Heskey are just not good enough for England. Its bizarre watching Lampard and Gerrard each week for there clubs but lets be honest, they play in a three man midfield with players who do the clever stuff for them.

Passing and movement has always been a problem for us, why do you think Hoddle played a three man midfield? Barry is too slow and plays in straight lines. The distance between the defence and the strikers were a joke. Too many hollywood passes from players who can't peform without there classier club team mate. So many times we forced play when players were clearly out of position.

Players like Dawson, Parker, Crouch, Adam Johnson, Lennon need to be used more. Hopefully Jack Wilshire will become that international class player we need to link play up but why do we only have one?

Why can't we produce players such as Gazza, Hoddle, Waddle, Scholes, Beckham, Anderton, Platt, Charlton and Moore who understand how to pass and move into space?

We need an English manager and there are only two candidates for me Harry and Roy. We need a manager who understands the english leagues and understands the players. We need balance which we have lacked for many years now.

I honestly believe someone like Roy Hodgson would identify the problems, build a team shape and be able to incoporate that into the players.

Also paying a manager 6m a year and giving him a lengthy contract? Very stupid.

There's nothing more to be said on the players who have been a disgrace to there countrys for a number of years now. Why can't Rooney ever be subed or dropped? I'm not Crouch's biggest fan but what more does he need to do for England to get a game?

Players like Heskey and Upson should never play for England, they just aren't good enough.

[MarlowSpurs]

When he brought Heskey on I didn't no whether to laugh or cry, the most bizzare substitution I have ever seen.

.

I actually stopped watching

[TURKISH]

I actually stopped watching

ITV 4 a bit of Berberac.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/jersey/content/images/2006/04/11/bergerac_s7_gallery_470x350.jpg

[MarlowSpurs]

ITV 4 a bit of Berberac.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/jersey/content/images/2006/04/11/bergerac_s7_gallery_470x350.jpg

Can't beat Bergarac, ended up watching the rest of Caddyshack I sky+ last night

[Rojoknapp]

Not far wrong then Ollie ?
Capello is a joke.

Spot on really :sad: And Rooney and Lampard were worse than shit. Though Lampard at least scored one of the goals of the tournament.

[spursmadnick06]

No excuses for the generally woeful football over the 4 games but not happy about the Lampard goal. If that had been given we'd have gone into half time on a high having come from 2 behind, and who knows what may have happened in the 2nd half.

That said, wouldn't fancy us against Argentina much!

[Gino Ginelli]

2 shocking lineo performances today, costing two teams potential WC 1/4 finals. Lampards goal that was that wasn't, and Tevez goal that wasn't but was. Pitiful at this level.

I honestly believe at 2-2 we'd have had that game. And I think Mexico were looking the more like scoring until they were robbed. Both teams collapsed thereafter.#

However, there are several other things to look at with yesterday afternoon's disaster. The first two goals showed how alarmingly above his level Upson was playing, Klose found it far too easy to win the physical battle with him, getting the right side of him throughout the first half, leading to both the first half goals. Schoolboy stuff tbh, any long ball like that should be won in the air all day long by Terry. Appalling positioning.

For the sceond half goals, well we'd committed men forwards, they hit us on the break with fearsome ruthlessness, the sort of single minded attacking that we didn't display. The ball was lost far too cheaply in the first place, Lampards free kick hitting the wall as usual and turning straight into a German counter-attack. How many times does Lampard actually hit the target from a free-kick? 1 in 10? Surely Gerrard or Rooney are better at dead balls?

Which leads onto our actual attacking. The lack of service to Defoe from the channels was alarming. We've all seen that if you get an early ball low into the near post, JD will attack it an invariably finish. He looked like coming alive anytime he got into the final 3rd. Rooney in stark contrast was shit. Just shit. No excuses at all. World Class? Up there with Messi and Ronaldo? You're having a laugh, he was fvcking useless, spent more time looking grumpy than actually doing anything useful. Passing was dreadful, no hunger, barely had a shot. Gerrard was equally dire, trying to put a hollywood ball over the top or lace it from 30 yards, always with the same, wayward result.

The substitutions seemed almost like taking the piss. Milner off and Joe Cole on the right? We're 3-1 down with 20 mins to go, take a defensive player off and attack! Talent vacuum Heskey on instead of 3 Metre Peter?? And for Defoe, the only attacking player who looks like coming alive?? And finally, SWP at right back? Just... wtf... eh?? With players like Lennon, Crouch and SWP you've got attacking players who can shake things up, but no, put one of them on at RB!!! Insane! Or, as I intimated, piss taking.

There's a certain relief in that there are a number of players from this last generation here that are unlikely to feature for England much longer, with a younger generation waiting in the wings. Having grown up with 80's generation of Hoddle, Waddle, Lineker, Butcher, Pearce, Beardsley, Barnes, I can safely say that the squad of the last 10 years cannot start to approach them. Only Beckham, and pre-burnout Owen could hold a light to previous illustrious generations, and to be fair, most of the successes of the last 10 years came from those two players.

Like the early 90's when a new set of players were yet to emerge, I feel we're about to enter a rather gloomy period of English football.

[olly27]

Cant agree with you GG about having the game had it been 2-2, just cant mate.
The way we were playing it would only of been a concilation in the end and for all those arguing about it changing the momentum - they are clutching at straws. Germany would still of won - and won easily.

You on honestly think that goal would of changed our massive defensive failings? No way. The Germans would still of exploited the lack of understanding between Terry and Upson, and the snail like pace of Barry who was suppose to be protecting them.

Johnson is just a horrendous defender, absoloutely shocking.

You look at the second goal...they got in so easily Podolski could afford a heavy touch for Christ sake. Looking at the third and decisive goal, it was so easy for them. Ok the fourth was a result of the third really.

The goal for 2-2 matters not, they still would of exploited our back line and our laboured midfield.

They were by far the better team and thats what hurts, the manner in which we crashed out was humiliating and for all those talking about that goal - well it should of counted but in the end we are kidding ourselves if we really believe that was key, it wasn't. I would bet all the money in the world the Germans would of gone to rip us open with those clowns at the back.

Barry nearly cost us against Slovenia, twice infact giving the ball away which led to great chances for them. Yesterday he was culpable again...for the third goal he lost it on the edge of the box when we had a lot of bodies committed and for the fourth he had a 5 metre head start and got blown away for pace.

Barry should never of got near that team and unfortunately when he was missing everybody built up to be something he wasn't just because we weren't playing well - oh its because Barry isn't in the team!

We were never winning that game and the best team won by a million miles.

The men were spanked by boys.

[Gino Ginelli]

No, because if it were 2-2 we wouldn't have been comitting men forwards and exposed ourselves at the back (oo-er) like that, would we?

[olly27]

No, because if it were 2-2 we wouldn't have been comitting men forwards and exposed ourselves at the back (oo-er) like that, would we?

What and we wern't exposed at the back anyway in the first half and conceded two!

Yes we were hit on the break in the second half but another side without the speed and quality of the Germans wouldn't of been so devestating.

We certainly wern't committing men forward for their second goal...it was quite simply a horror show.


We shouldn't of be committing that many men forward anyway being only a goal behind with 25 mins to play plus injury time. All over the place really and as a team we look brainless.

The bottam line is the warning signs (understatement) were there for all to see in the first half, particularly our cultured defending (cough) and that showed no sign of changing at all through out the enitre game had Lampard's goal been allowed or not.

You think had that goal been allowed suddenly our backline would of looked competent against those lot, not a chance.

They scored two piss easy goals when we wern't committing men forward in the first half so I dont get your logic on that one GG - well I do actually but we were just as bad when they scored the first and second, infact we were worse because we didn't have the excuse of committing men forward, did we!

The goal obviously should of counted but it wouldn't of changed the outcome and its wishful thinking IMO.

[Gino Ginelli]

First two goals, as I mentioned in my intial post, were down to schoolboy errors imo, and yes, our ineptitude with coping with the Germans pace and power was resulting in us getting a spanking. But with the Upson goal our whole attitude changed, we gained a sense of belief and we went at them, and they were the ones struggling to cope with us.

At 2-2 the impetus would have been with us, the mentality would have changed, they would have been the ones on the back foot and I fully believe we would have been the ones getting the third goal.

As such the goal was dissallowed, heads dropped, we got frantic and were caught on the break. Twice.

And that's not logic, that's belief.

[olly27]

First two goals, as I mentioned in my intial post, were down to schoolboy errors imo, and yes, our ineptitude with coping with the Germans pace and power was resulting in us getting a spanking. But with the Upson goal our whole attitude changed, we gained a sense of belief and we went at them, and they were the ones struggling to cope with us.

At 2-2 the impetus would have been with us, the mentality would have changed, they would have been the ones on the back foot and I fully believe we would have been the ones getting the third goal.

As such the goal was dissallowed, heads dropped, we got frantic and were caught on the break. Twice.

And that's not logic, that's belief.

Belief based on what, 5 mins after Upson scored? The whole tournament was shambolic and I fail to see on what evidence we would of gone on to beat a very decent German side - admittedly they arn't great at the back but the rest of the side gave us a footballing lesson in terms of passing with a purpose and interchanging with fluid movement.

Sorry but heads dropping with 45 mins to play and in theory still very much in the game isn't a good enough excuse for me. Gerrard's head didn't exactly drop when they were 3-0 down against Milan in the CL final did it?

Its making excuses for them and most people accept, and correctly so, that they were well and truly beaten by the better side. To be honest I think your conception of it (not you personally GG :santaclaus:) is part of the problem we have. The better team won yesterday and sometimes its best to admit it so we can learn and attempt to move on and change, or try and correct it in someway. Using the excuse of the disallowed goal suggests that the injustice outweighed the poor performance, it catergorically didn't IMO.

I would be with you 100% if it had been a very good performance (ala semi 90) and we were denied by that poor decision but it wasn't - it was a terrible performance from a group of players who have spent endless days together in their preparation.

[Baleinho]

All conjecture and irrelevant.

Put simply, we have not performed at the level that we and the players themselves expect. I think the team really needs an overhaul, the Germans did it recently too, dropping many of their high end players after 2008. There are many areas in which the team needs to be addressed:

GK: I'm not James' biggest fan but I thought he was tremendous. Kept us in more than one of the games we played in the tourney. If we had another GK playing, we probably would of lost 5/6/7-1. I cant see him playing another tourney, so for Hart/Green its time to step up and prove your worth. Hart deserves the opportunity to play at a big club (honestly, I can see him being a Gooner not long from now) and he will evolve into one of the games finest.

DEF: Now this is a strange one. In Cole we have one of the best Left Back's in the world and who I believe played great consistantly. Terry is sluggish and I believe sulking still after being removed as captain and not getting his own way. Without a fast defender he is isolated and cannot keep up with strong powerful forwards (Klose) Same with Upson. It's a shame we didnt have Rio, he probably would of made a great difference.

MID: 4-5-1? 4-3-3? 4-1-2-1-2? No matter how you look at it, the likes of Gerrard and Lampard do NOT compliment themselves when playing for England. They are too similar in their styles of play. Gerrard coming in from the left is a disaster waiting to happen (exposes Cole and leaves him with 2v1) Lennon was poor. Sad to say it, he really was. This in total was probably down to Johnston trying to overlap every 10 seconds and Lennon having to drop deeper. Lennon didn't have the freedom he's used to for Spurs. Maybe he was just marked out of the game. Milner was alright at best. He put in one good cross and now hes a ****ing genius? J. Cole wasn't given enough of an opportunity to skin wingbacks or cut inside. He was mainly used to waste time against Slovenia. Not enough imo.

ATT: SIGH. Rooney. Reminds me a little of Ronaldo for WC98 Final, just not all there mentally and physically. I said before the WC that Heskey would be influential for Rooney, but with a misfiring Rooney, it was never gonna work for him. Crouch didnt get enough gametime to really have any influence and Defoe scored, but really did little else. We were weak up top, maybe someone like Agbonlahor, with pace and strength would of been a better choice.

Speculate all you want, but we really do need a shakeup. Maybe dropping some of our experience for youth naivety and exuberance might be in order for the next stage. Qualifying for Euro 2012.

[Gino Ginelli]

Yes, the better team won, and I've already gone on about some of the problems I saw in the team. All I'm saying is that if that goal had stood the flow of the game would have been different. Yeah we might a have still gone on and lost 4-2, but neither can you say for certain that we wouldn't have taken the impetus and won it ourselves. We'll never know now.

I'm not attempting to paper over any cracks, I'm fully aware how limited this squad was. But there's no denying that that decision had a massive impact on the game, just as the blatant offside that wasn't given potentially screwed Mexico out of a result against Argentina.

[peterc]

Percentage wins for managers managing England.

1). Fabio Capello 71%.
2). Sven Goran Ericksson 68.5%

Glenda, Sir Alf Ramsay 60%.

So, foreign managers seem to have increased the percentage of wins. These percentages were shown on Sky Sports News this afternoon.

[olly27]

Yes, the better team won, and I've already gone on about some of the problems I saw in the team. All I'm saying is that if that goal had stood the flow of the game would have been different. Yeah we might a have still gone on and lost 4-2, but neither can you say for certain that we wouldn't have taken the impetus and won it ourselves. We'll never know now.

I'm not attempting to paper over any cracks, I'm fully aware how limited this squad was. But there's no denying that that decision had a massive impact on the game, just as the blatant offside that wasn't given potentially screwed Mexico out of a result against Argentina.

Yes but the difference is Gino that I am basing it on their feeble performances thus far in the World Cup, what are you basing it on? Yes we will never know but if I were a betting man, and I am hehe, I would of been putting my money on the Germans all day long after that first half performance.

I would say the fact that they played good football and we didn't had far more impact on the game than the dissallowed goal. I would say that the fact they could organise themselves and actually defend had far more impact on the game as well. I could go on and on.

Of course I accept what your saying and it of would lifted us but our defence was just catastrophic and thats no exagertion. It couldn't cope first half and it couldn't of coped second. For me it would of just made the Germans more determined to cut us open. It was like a knfe through butter.

You said yourself that Gerrard looked shit scared. Rooney never looked like finding a semblance of his United form. Just dont see any evidence at all for us going on to win the game. We had a 5 min spell and Lampard was severly unlucky but thats it for me.

If we let that decision ruin the following 45 mins when we are still in theory very much in the game and in the last 16 of the WC thats just pathetic for me. It should of made us more determined but we didn't have the quality as a collective unit and the Germans played as a team, I think our players sensed that.


At least Mexico can pass the ball about and look creative, infact they are lovely to watch on the ball and create plenty of chances.

[Gino Ginelli]

Yes but the difference is Gino that I am basing it on their feeble performances thus far in the World Cup, what are you basing it on? Yes we will never know but if I were a betting man, and I am hehe, I would of been putting my money on the Germans all day long after that first half performance.

I'm basing it on my feeling that at 2-1 we suddenly had belief, we were going at them and they were struggling to cope. At 2-2 the impetus would have been with us and they would have struggled to cope with us. Plus we wouldn't have been committing the men forwards so wouldn't have been destroyed on the counter like that. Our two CB's would have coped much better from the lack of pressure on them and a reinvigorated confidence and focus that you get when you come back from 2 down to have the psychological advantage, especially in such a big game.

That is my feeling and it's based on what little experience I've had in watching these kind of big games, and what football I've played. You mention Stevie G against AC Milan in 2005. They were 3 down and buried, but they got the goal back and suddenly there was a belief that they could do it. It would have been a similar situation in Bloemfontein had the 2nd goal been allowed. It would have given us a mental edge that we could go on and win in. Having it dissallowed had the opposite effect, and of course we had to commit ourselves against a team that only know how to attack.

Of course this highlights the common issues we're raising about this squadds mental strength and ability, which I'm not disputing at all.

[olly27]

I'm basing it on my feeling that at 2-1 we suddenly had belief, we were going at them and they were struggling to cope. At 2-2 the impetus would have been with us and they would have struggled to cope with us. Plus we wouldn't have been committing the men forwards so wouldn't have been destroyed on the counter like that. Our two CB's would have coped much better from the lack of pressure on them and a reinvigorated confidence and focus that you get when you come back from 2 down to have the psychological advantage, especially in such a big game.

That is my feeling and it's based on what little experience I've had in watching these kind of big games, and what football I've played. You mention Stevie G against AC Milan in 2005. They were 3 down and buried, but they got the goal back and suddenly there was a belief that they could do it. It would have been a similar situation in Bloemfontein had the 2nd goal been allowed. It would have given us a mental edge that we could go on and win in. Having it dissallowed had the opposite effect, and of course we had to commit ourselves against a team that only know how to attack.

Of course this highlights the common issues we're raising about this squadds mental strength and ability, which I'm not disputing at all.

First of all Liverpool were actually a decent team who played pretty decent football hence their achievement of reaching the CL final. England are not (in terms of the top 8 countries etc), which has been proved time and time again.

Yes belief can play a massive part but you have to have the quality in there as well. Collectively we dont have it. I am not sure why you would of been so confident, unless you were expecting the Germans to fold had we equalised through Lampard - which they certainly wouldn't of knowing the German way. We were all over the place - devoid of composure, shape, concentration and organisation. Even the way we committed so many men forward looking for the second goal knowing their strength on the counter so early on in the second half was suicide and brainless. You cant just blame that on the fact that we needed a goal - it wasnt the last 10 mins even.

We shouldn't need to rely on an injustice to get a surge of belief or always having to come from behind to get that momentum, thats baffling for me. What gives you proper belief is belief in your own ability and as a collective unit we dont have belief in our ability, the Germans certainly do in stark contrast. We were always going to get found out playing like this.

Difference between them being rattled for a small period and us going on to dominate the game and eventually win it. At absolutely no point in this World Cup I have felt like that except from a 25 min period against Slovenia when he had complete dominance and should had at least 2 more goals - and thats against the smallest nation at the World Cup.

[TURKISH]

No, because if it were 2-2 we wouldn't have been comitting men forwards and exposed ourselves at the back (oo-er) like that, would we?

Germany was calving us open all day for me, if the ref gave that goal for 2.2 Upson and co wouldn't have turned into a Jose Mourinho side.

Germany were always in control and were always gonna get at least four goals for me.

Hopefully we can turn this into a positive, we need to look at grass roots football and look at our own league. Are the FA doing a good enough job? So many silly mistakes and they are slowly losing there own fans.

We need a complete overhaul.

Alan Shearer was nearly in tears yesterday! :laugh:

[Gino Ginelli]

We shouldn't need to rely on an injustice to get a surge of belief, thats baffling for me. What gives you proper belief is belief in your own ability and as a collective unit we dont have belief in our ability, the Germans certainly do in stark contrast.

No, it wasn't the injustice that would give belief, it would have been getting the equaliser at half time that would. It would have changed the game. I'm not saying we weren't poor, but we all know that those players can play much much better than that, and that it's the mentality as much as any lack of technical ability that was and is the real problem.

The Germans wouldn't have folded, but we would have played much much better knowing what we could do.

Whether we were shit or not doesn't change the fact that that decision changed the game. It doesn't matter if we had lost or not at the end. We were still robbed!

[TURKISH]

No, it wasn't the injustice that would give belief, it would have been getting the equaliser at half time that would. It would have changed the game. I'm not saying we weren't poor, but we all know that those players can play much much better than that, and that it's the mentality as much as any lack of technical ability that was and is the real problem.

The Germans wouldn't have folded, but we would have played much much better knowing what we could do.

Whether we were shit or not doesn't change the fact that that decision changed the game. It doesn't matter if we had lost or not at the end. We were still robbed!

Tactically and the team shape along with the players technically was the real problem. None of these players can do it at the big stage without the foreign players at there clubs to do the clever stuff. That second goal would have changed our demenour but not our ability or set up.

Germany were the better side over 90 minutes, they were fitter, smarter, tactically astute and more ruthless than us.

We can't hide behind excuses, the players need to listen to the criticism because they need to realise they have been shite for years.

The manager is Sven 2 again, he will always play the supposed big name players no matter if the system doesn't suit the players.

We had four cm in midfield, we had no pace with players who just aren't smart enough at international level.

Time for change all round, just like when Keegan left.

[olly27]

No, it wasn't the injustice that would give belief, it would have been getting the equaliser at half time that would. It would have changed the game. I'm not saying we weren't poor, but we all know that those players can play much much better than that, and that it's the mentality as much as any lack of technical ability that was and is the real problem.

The Germans wouldn't have folded, but we would have played much much better knowing what we could do.

Whether we were shit or not doesn't change the fact that that decision changed the game. It doesn't matter if we had lost or not at the end. We were still robbed!

I meant the equaliser. But how would we have played much better? It does matter that we were shit, because obviously that limits our chances of winning - greatly. You say Gino that the decision changed the game, I am saying quite simply it wouldn't of changed the outcome and I am basing that on the simple fact that we were shit.


The warning signs were there against Mexico at Wembely who totally outclassed us, Japan, the USA, Algeria for certain - improvement against Slovenia but hardly epic proportions and then the Germans who were just ruthless enough to completely expose it.

It was coming.

Rooney last scored for England in September.

Blind optimism for me, but I guess we just see it very differently. Your also forgetting that the Germans could of been out of sight with several other great chances they had.

I thought they were excellent as much as it pains me to admitt it, but equally we were crap - hence the gulf in performance yesterday.

[Gino Ginelli]

Well I'm of the opinion that it wouldn't matter, because we'd have dug deep and got ourselves out of it if were 2-2 at half time, not based on ability but on the sheer guts that scoreline would have given us.

At no point am I disagreeing that we were shit and outclassed. But I'm also saying that we were robbed, and as cataclysmic that that result was, this squad of players are not as bad as we are making out. Something is catastrophically bad in that squad, and it's not a footballing one.

I guess we'll never know.

[TURKISH]

Well I'm of the opinion that it wouldn't matter, because we'd have dug deep and got ourselves out of it if were 2-2 at half time, not based on ability but on the sheer guts that scoreline would have given us.

At no point am I disagreeing that we were shit and outclassed. But I'm also saying that we were robbed, and as cataclysmic that that result was, this squad of players are not as bad as we are making out. Something is catastrophically bad in that squad, and it's not a footballing one.

I guess we'll never know.

I think we were only robbed of hope, other than that nothing over the course of 90 minutes indicates we could have salvaged something.

BUT then again we will never know, you could be bang on Gino. I personally believe these players don't deserve an excuse like that, the way they jogged back each time when the Germans countered was disrespectful.

[olly27]

Well I'm of the opinion that it wouldn't matter, because we'd have dug deep and got ourselves out of it if were 2-2 at half time, not based on ability but on the sheer guts that scoreline would have given us.

At no point am I disagreeing that we were shit and outclassed. But I'm also saying that we were robbed, and as cataclysmic that that result was, this squad of players are not as bad as we are making out. Something is catastrophically bad in that squad, and it's not a footballing one.

I guess we'll never know.

We were robbed but for me it wasn't defining when looking at the overall picture of the game, and our campaign at this WC as a whole. There was no real feeling of being robbed as we all knew deep down we were utter garbage.

The squad of players are excellent, on paper at least, but as a team at this level they are not.

Its no coincidence that each and every manager of recent times has failed to get the best out of them. There couldn't always be a rift in the camp.

For me it goes back all the way to grass roots and the style of play we see every Saturday is not the same formula for success at this level.

But I think there were big problems behind the scenes this time which ultimately played a role in this shambolic WC and exacerbated our fundamental limitations.

[Shelfside]

Well I'm of the opinion that it wouldn't matter, because we'd have dug deep and got ourselves out of it if were 2-2 at half time, not based on ability but on the sheer guts that scoreline would have given us.

At no point am I disagreeing that we were shit and outclassed. But I'm also saying that we were robbed, and as cataclysmic that that result was, this squad of players are not as bad as we are making out. Something is catastrophically bad in that squad, and it's not a footballing one.

I guess we'll never know.

I have to disagree Gino.
England were not robbed IMO.We only got the point of equalising through huff and puff.This something that you cannot do for 90 mins.We had absolutely no creativity whatsoever.Germany gave us a footballing lesson in passing/movement and counter attacking.Even if we had got it back to 2-2,I could not realistically have seen our defence hold out seeing as how amateurishly they played.
I think that the Premiership has now been brutally exposed.These English players are,for the most part,above average only.The quality of the foreign players around them at their clubs cover up their weaknesses.Now we can see why Arsene Wenger steers clear of English players as much as possible.I mean,really,Aston Villa wanting £30 million for James Milner?.
As an aside,did anyone see the shot of the two English fans dressed up as WW2 RAF pilots?.One the most fist chewingly embarrassing things that I've had the misfortune to witness.And the English wonder why the rest of the world hates them?.

[choda]

I have to disagree Gino.
England were not robbed IMO.We only got the point of equalising through huff and puff.This something that you cannot do for 90 mins.We had absolutely no creativity whatsoever.Germany gave us a footballing lesson in passing/movement and counter attacking.Even if we had got it back to 2-2,I could not realistically have seen our defence hold out seeing as how amateurishly they played.
I think that the Premiership has now been brutally exposed.These English players are,for the most part,above average only.The quality of the foreign players around them at their clubs cover up their weaknesses.Now we can see why Arsene Wenger steers clear of English players as much as possible.I mean,really,Aston Villa wanting £30 million for James Milner?.
As an aside,did anyone see the shot of the two English fans dressed up as WW2 RAF pilots?.One the most fist chewingly embarrassing things that I've had the misfortune to witness.And the English wonder why the rest of the world hates them?.

Absolutely spot on Shelfside.

You only have to watch the way Gerrard and Lampard avoid the ball so often in the centre, leaving no option but to go direct even when it isn't on. They only want to run onto the ball in a forward thrust. That's so one dimensional, they are only good when they have two cms behind that do the real job first and quality up top to string it together.

And how it is all in straight lines in almost every position, there's no feel of the ball, quickly wanting the ball, composure, control, patience and then one twos to cut teams open.

You look at England and the only players that seem to know what they are doing at this level are Rooney and King, because they are naturals. The others have never been coached properly and are largely accommodated at their clubs to save time.

Granted some of these players are outstanding at certain things but the philosophy in England fails to see the limitations of these players. And then even players like Rooney look out of joint because who is around them with a proper brain to get on their wavelength?

And Capello is none the wiser as far as I can see. His success at club level can be explained by working with technical players and organising them defensively. Their development as players filled in the rest. If he needed a ready made player for part of his squad then you can buy one at club level. Ditto Erikson. Good organisers, not deep thinkers, which is what England really need, a cruyff and so on to totally change the whole view on how the game should be played.

Argentina and Spain totally changed their way of playing in the 70's and 80's because they knew there was a much better and more beautiful way to play. England need to do the same. So do Ireland and the Nordic countries but not to quite the same extent because per capita these are a lot better in producing technically rounded footballers, but still need to do a lot of work.

For example Ireland have produced Duff, Keane, Ireland, Andy Reid in the last ten years. These are technical footballers, England ten times the size have produced/played Rooney, Cole, Scholes and David Dunn in the last decade. I can't remember anyone else going forward I would regard as a technical player having a good brain and vision, which is quite an inditement of a nation that size.

Ireland has not been managed well at all either, I'm not talking about how good either side is, just in terms of producing all types of player and some technical players which gives you more of a chance of melding a balanced and quality side you can feel proud of.

For Ireland that would mean becoming an outsider at tournos, for England that would mean first becoming an outsider, then a real favourite and then at some stage winning one.

[olly27]

Absolutely spot on Shelfside.

You only have to watch the way Gerrard and Lampard avoid the ball so often in the centre, leaving no option but to go direct even when it isn't on. They only want to run onto the ball in a forward thrust. That's so one dimensional, they are only good when they have two cms behind that do the real job first and quality up top to string it together.

And how it is all in straight lines in almost every position, there's no feel of the ball, quickly wanting the ball, composure, control, patience and then one twos to cut teams open.

You look at England and the only players that seem to know what they are doing at this level are Rooney and King, because they are naturals. The others have never been coached properly and are largely accommodated at their clubs to save time.

Granted some of these players are outstanding at certain things but the philosophy in England fails to see the limitations of these players. And then even players like Rooney look out of joint because who is around them with a proper brain to get on their wavelength?

And Capello is none the wiser as far as I can see. His success at club level can be explained by working with technical players and organising them defensively. Their development as players filled in the rest. If he needed a ready made player for part of his squad then you can buy one at club level. Ditto Erikson. Good organisers, not deep thinkers, which is what England really need, a cruyff and so on to totally change the whole view on how the game should be played.

Argentina and Spain totally changed their way of playing in the 70's and 80's because they knew there was a much better and more beautiful way to play. England need to do the same. So do Ireland and the Nordic countries but not to quite the same extent because per capita these are a lot better in producing technically rounded footballers, but still need to do a lot of work.

For example Ireland have produced Duff, Keane, Ireland, Andy Reid in the last ten years. These are technical footballers, England ten times the size have produced/played Rooney, Cole, Scholes and David Dunn in the last decade. I can't remember anyone else going forward I would regard as a technical player having a good brain and vision, which is quite an inditement of a nation that size.

Ireland has not been managed well at all either, I'm not talking about how good either side is, just in terms of producing all types of player and some technical players which gives you more of a chance of melding a balanced and quality side you can feel proud of.

For Ireland that would mean becoming an outsider at tournos, for England that would mean first becoming an outsider, then a real favourite and then at some stage winning one.

I would certainly add Teddy Sheringham to that list.

[TURKISH]

I would certainly add Teddy Sheringham to that list.

Tedd was in his late 30 ten years ago.:laugh:

[olly27]

Tedd was in his late 30 ten years ago.:laugh:

Didn't Teddy feature at the 2002 WC, I am sure he did, against Argentina and Beckham scored the penalty to beat them 1-0?

[TURKISH]

Didn't Teddy feature at the 2002 WC, I am sure he did, against Argentina and Beckham scored the penalty to beat them 1-0?

But he wasn't produced ten years ago, he was starting his career back in the late 80's with Millwall.

Since 2000 we have produced many technically gifted players, but I'm not suprised many scouts go for pace and power of skill and technique.

[choda]

But he wasn't produced ten years ago, he was starting his career back in the late 80's with Millwall.

Since 2000 we have produced many technically gifted players, but I'm not suprised many scouts go for pace and power of skill and technique.

Probably have, but by produced I do mean those that are picked by youth coaches early on, encouraged, then scouted and so on. It's a systematic failure.

[Gino Ginelli]

David Dunn? WTF? Why mention a completely average player and not Beckham, the most vital mainstay of the England team this past 10 years?

But otherwise, yes I agree with all this.

[TURKISH]

David Dunn? WTF? Why mention a completely average player and not Beckham, the most vital mainstay of the England team this past 10 years?

But otherwise, yes I agree with all this.

Scholes and Becks was produced late 90's, they both made the 98 world cup squad.

[choda]

David Dunn? WTF? Why mention a completely average player and not Beckham, the most vital mainstay of the England team this past 10 years?

But otherwise, yes I agree with all this.

I made a point of stating I wasn't really talking about standard but the type of player.

And for the record I think he's a good player and the type that England need to be picking in their squads instead of your Milners and Lampards. More Dunns, less one dimensional sluggers. Dunn does have technical ability and vision, something England need a lot more of.

It's a bit like the Carrick, Hudd situation. They might not be amazing or ready to play but there's no one else to do what they do so it has to be done to have any chance.

My point is the Germans will often pick what would be classed as a lesser player if it is demanded by what they need in the unit. England don't do it and its part of the reason they suffer badly as a result.

[olly27]

Right I didn't see the 'produced' part first time round.

But Teddy is a classis expamle of what Choda is talking about. Beckham isn't that type of player.

I see what you mean about David Dunn Choda, but bottam line is he wont get picked because he plays for Blackburn - but yeah he's a good player alright and England have a complete dearth of these type of players.

The bottam line is players are picked beacuse of 'who' they are and what Clubs they play for and them lumped together to play together at all costs. Little thought goes into building a proper team - as simple as that sounds.

Its a team built on reputation alone and has always smacked of cramming in as many big names as possible at all costs. Of course its been to the detriment of the team.

Adding to that...

as Muller said this week...too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

[Gino Ginelli]

David Dunn is fvcking shit. Joke.

[choda]

Right I didn't see the 'produced' part first time round.

But Teddy is a classis expamle of what Choda is talking about. Beckham isn't that type of player.

I see what you mean about David Dunn Choda, but bottam line is he wont get picked because he plays for Blackburn - but yeah he's a good player alright and England have a complete dearth of these type of players.

The bottam line is players are picked beacuse of 'who' they are and what Clubs they play for and them lumped together to play together at all costs. Little thought goes into building a proper team - as simple as that sounds.

Its a team built on reputation alone and has always smacked of cramming in as many big names as possible at all costs. Of course its been to the detriment of the team.

Adding to that...

as Muller said this week...too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

Indeed. It could also be said that England won't ever pick your Dirk Kuyts when they need maybe one of those, you need your good soldiers too, the type that always give you 100% and never let you down. Scott Parker should be far more valued imo.