International Match Thread: Rep. Ireland v Italy

[Gino Ginelli]

Trappatoni takes on his homeland, and Choda blows a gasket at his tactics! Discuss! :wink:

[deadleyledley]

i think that the irish will get a draw. the crowd will spur them on but i think that the injuries have played quite a big factor.

trappa will have lots of knowledge but not the tools to unfold the italians.
im gonna go for a 2-2.

[Rojoknapp]

I think it will be another 1-1, which should be enough (assuming we beat Montenegro) to see us into the play-offs, but if we beat Italy and Montenegro.... we could even be looking at 1st place :biggrin: It's a big ask but stranger things have happened...

[Gino Ginelli]

A draw wouldn't be a bad result at all against Italy, so expect more defensive long ball action. And possibly from the Italians as well...

[Chewy]

Went for a win but can see a draw or us huffing and puffing but the Italians nicking it 1-0.

How Andy Reid isn't in the squad is beyond me. Must be a personal issue with Trappatoni.

Would of prefered to see Finnan at RB and O'Shea to replace Zinidene Kilbane at LB.

I have a date on sat night so won't get to watch it but heres hoping for a win :)

[gazzaG8]

Went for a draw, but due to my missus being half irish would love for them them to win.
Keane to score either way.

[gomessi]

Republic of Ireland: Shay Given, John O'Shea, Richard Dunne, Sean St Ledger, Kevin Kilbane, Liam Lawrence, Glenn Whelan, Keith Andrews, Aidan McGeady, Kevin Doyle, Robbie Keane.

Live on Sky Sports 2

good luck because you'll need it with that midfield.

[Rojoknapp]

Argh. The midfield isn't even the worst bit: Kevin Kilbane :thumbdown:

He's been horrifically bad for the past three or four games, I would even have more faith in Eddie Nolan at this point.

[gomessi]

Argh. The midfield isn't even the worst bit: Kevin Kilbane :thumbdown:

He's been horrifically bad for the past three or four games, I would even have more faith in Eddie Nolan at this point.

Kilbane has looked crap whenever I've watched him play for wigan and everton.

[choda]

Argh. The midfield isn't even the worst bit: Kevin Kilbane :thumbdown:

He's been horrifically bad for the past three or four games, I would even have more faith in Eddie Nolan at this point.

It's by far the worst bit, by streets and miles. But yes, Kilbane has had a few bad games and needs to get his act together or play someone else. He was a pretty solid full back before this though, so I wouldn't write him off just yet.

[irishyid]

i think we can win in fairness trapatoni knows he hasnt got world class players to play amazing football he has installed enuf belief to help us grind out results and so far we been able to do that. i no that as much as any irish fan does we dont have **** all world class players exception of shay given and dunne possibly that be it really

[Rojoknapp]

i think we can win in fairness trapatoni knows he hasnt got world class players to play amazing football he has installed enuf belief to help us grind out results and so far we been able to do that. i no that as much as any irish fan does we dont have **** all world class players exception of shay given and dunne possibly that be it really

If Dunne plays like he did against City tonight then we would have a chance of at least a 0-0 draw against any team in the world. He was an absolute colossus. Those of you who didn't want us to sign him - it's that sort of performance that all us Irish THFCtalkers were banging on about when we were saying we should buy him. I like Bassong a lot, but I would have preferred Richard Dunne.

[earl warwick]

That's a dire looking midfield Trap has put out - Lawrence/Whelan/Andrews/McGeady.

Reid should easily be a starter on current form.

Hard to see Ireland getting anything from this, but as Bulgaria lost, they don't need to.

[peterc]

What a goal, very well taken by Whelan.

[peterc]

Republic of Ireland were unlucky not to win. Italians are well known to score in the dying minutes....

[Rojoknapp]

I can't believe what just happened. I'm absolutely sickened.

[choda]

i think we can win in fairness trapatoni knows he hasnt got world class players to play amazing football he has installed enuf belief to help us grind out results and so far we been able to do that. i no that as much as any irish fan does we dont have **** all world class players exception of shay given and dunne possibly that be it really

How many world class players do the Italians have these days?

We have a lot of good players and a few stars. You can build an excellent side doing that if you do it the right way.

Trap is getting a fair amount of criticism and rightly so because although he's proven yet again how far organisation, work rate and belief can take you it can be terribly frustrating when you then shoot yourself in the foot by not picking some very talented players that clearly should play and you don't encourage football to be played - so you never see the full capability of the team.

Managers like him make a career on the setting the ugly stuff and belief in place, which is brilliant but sometimes you don't have personalities with ability in central midfield with the courage to install the rest of it as well. And managers like him love to drop some players that might give you the whole ingredients, because they have too much caution. They are happier when the opposition have the ball, which is deeply flawed imo. It's also very frustrating to watch.

Ireland could and should have pushed an aging Italian side all the way to the wire in this group. We were ahead against Bulgaria, ahead against Italy, both at home, and started playing the way you should play and then just retreated and when it got sticky lacked the moral courage to want the ball in central midfield.

And we played 70 minutes against 10 men in Italy.

If Trappatoni is going to get the most out of a not so deep pool of players then he can't afford to drop a player like Reid, who coincidently is exactly what we lack - someone when the going gets tough who will demand the ball in the centre of the pitch.

We are not a top side and we are going nowhere really, even if we get to the world cup. It is frustrating because we could be a real team, a bit like the Czechs have been for many years.

On the individuals I thought JoS was excellent, Dunne as well, St. Ledger was good though he lacks pace, Doyle had a stinker, worst game in an Ireland shirt, Lawrence is a good player, I feel has a bit about him and ability, Given for the first time for years watching Ireland I can remember thinking 'he could have saved that', Keane was very good, very sharp against the hardest defenders to play against, McGeady is quality but not the brightest.

Kilbane was good against Cameronasi, I think just needed some games at club level to get match fitness. He's seems to be back to being a good pro at full back.

[choda]

I can't believe what just happened. I'm absolutely sickened.

It would have been a travesty if we won though. Draw was a fair result.

[Rojoknapp]

Having got over it slightly, having had a bit of time to reflect, I'm actually pretty encouraged. Firstly, we are in the play-offs with a game to spare which I would have bitten your hand off for if you'd offered it to me before the campaign. It's just a bit disappointing because we could have got 4 more points off Bulgaria than we did, but Kevin Kilbane screwed us twice. We also only had to hold out tonight for 5 more minutes.

However, though Sepp Blatter is a massive c*nt who is doing his utmost to make it impossible for teams like Ireland to qualify, just for the sake of the big countries who he now sees have f*cked up their group and need a second chance, I feel much better about the play-offs than I did before tonight. I felt we matched Italy for long periods, and in the second half in particular we looked a decent team. In the first half there were too many aimless, panicky punts, but I think Trap had a word and we came out more composed in the second half. In the end we lost because we naively flooded forward when we had a 1 goal lead with 5 minutes to go. We really could and should have seen it out, but Italy would almost certainly have beaten Cyprus anyway so I suppose it doesn't really matter.

[choda]

Having got over it slightly, having had a bit of time to reflect, I'm actually pretty encouraged. Firstly, we are in the play-offs with a game to spare which I would have bitten your hand off for if you'd offered it to me before the campaign. It's just a bit disappointing because we could have got 4 more points off Bulgaria than we did, but Kevin Kilbane screwed us twice. We also only had to hold out tonight for 5 more minutes.

However, though Sepp Blatter is a massive c*nt who is doing his utmost to make it impossible for teams like Ireland to qualify, just for the sake of the big countries who he now sees have f*cked up their group and need a second chance, I feel much better about the play-offs than I did before tonight. I felt we matched Italy for long periods, and in the second half in particular we looked a decent team. In the first half there were too many aimless, panicky punts, but I think Trap had a word and we came out more composed in the second half. In the end we lost because we naively flooded forward when we had a 1 goal lead with 5 minutes to go. We really could and should have seen it out, but Italy would almost certainly have beaten Cyprus anyway so I suppose it doesn't really matter.

I don't know how you think the second half performance was good. We had good individual performances in many positions, but as usual the central midfield was non-existant and we gave up so much possession and territory and that will usually lead to disaster.

We can play, we took the lead in five matches by playing at the start, but then we stop playing because as the game goes on the manager gets more and more cautious and he transmits that to the central midfielders and they don't do there job anymore possession wise. It's ridiculous. I don't care how well we've done, it just shows that we can be a real handful for anyone if we get our act together. But don't hold your breath, Trap is an oddball.

And just blaming Kevin Kilbane is very short sighted. He's been a great pro for Ireland. He made one bad mistake, the other was an og. He's not been in the best form but he wasn't match fit and he was far from the main cause of us not having more points.

[Rojoknapp]

I don't know how you think the second half performance was good. We had good individual performances in many positions, but as usual the central midfield was non-existant and we gave up so much possession and territory and that will usually lead to disaster.

We can play, we took the lead in five matches by playing at the start, but then we stop playing because as the game goes on the manager gets more and more cautious and he transmits that to the central midfielders and they don't do there job anymore possession wise. It's ridiculous. I don't care how well we've done, it just shows that we can be a real handful for anyone if we get our act together. But don't hold your breath, Trap is an oddball.

And just blaming Kevin Kilbane is very short sighted. He's been a great pro for Ireland. He made one bad mistake, the other was an og. He's not been in the best form but he wasn't match fit and he was far from the main cause of us not having more points.

I know Kilbane has been a good player for Ireland, but he really has lost it. And I know we dropped off in those games against Bulgaria, so we allowed them in, but I really think any average left back would have prevented those Bulgarian goals.

As for the performance, I thought we played pretty well against the world champions don't forget. One lapse in concentration gave them their only chance of note in the first half, and one instance of ridiculous naivety gave them their goal in the second. I'm definitely looking forward to the play-offs much more than I would have been..... would love nothing more than to see a new Jason McAteer against Holland :biggrin:

[choda]

I know Kilbane has been a good player for Ireland, but he really has lost it. And I know we dropped off in those games against Bulgaria, so we allowed them in, but I really think any average left back would have prevented those Bulgarian goals.

As for the performance, I thought we played pretty well against the world champions don't forget. One lapse in concentration gave them their only chance of note in the first half, and one instance of ridiculous naivety gave them their goal in the second. I'm definitely looking forward to the play-offs much more than I would have been..... would love nothing more than to see a new Jason McAteer against Holland :biggrin:

I don't think they'll get near winning the next world cup though mate. They've f*ck all world class players now. They've a lot of seria A players and a few stars, just like we have a lot of premier league players and a few stars, but they're not amazing.

I think they can do well but they are an outside bet. Pirlo, Buffon and Grosso are the only stand out players. They are the only players in that team that strike me as pure quality. As always they know how to defend though. Italian centre backs and keeper will always be solid.

There was a lot to commend in the Irish performance. I wouldn't go so far to call it 'awful' like Dunphy did, but I can see where he was coming from because if there's one thing I can't stand as well it is a lack of moral courage to take hold of the football.

We have players all over that aren't afraid to play but in every team the main link men for possession are in central midfield and our two are useless.

We can defend and we can play when we get the ball to the wingers and strikers, but the problem is it is so patchy because the central midfielders have very little influence to get a foundation.

Now, I'm definitely in the camp that believes Trapattoni is getting this part of it badly wrong both in direction and selection.

[TURKISH]

I don't think they'll get near winning the next world cup though mate. They've f*ck all world class players now. They've a lot of seria A players and a few stars, just like we have a lot of premier league players and a few stars, but they're not amazing.

I think they can do well but they are an outside bet. Pirlo, Buffon and Grosso are the only stand out players. They are the only players in that team that strike me as quality. As always they know how to defend though. Italian centre backs and keeper will always be solid.

There was a lot to commend in the Irish performance. I wouldn't go so far to call it 'awful' like Dunphy did, but I can see where he was coming from because if there's one thing I can't stand as well it is a lack of moral courage to take hold of the football.

We have players all over that aren't afraid to play but in every team the main link men for possession are in central midfield and our two are useless.

We can defend and we can play when we get the ball to the wingers and strikers, but the problem is it is so patchy because the central midfielders have very little influence to get a foundation.

Now, I'm definitely in the camp that believes Trapattoni is getting this part of it badly wrong both in direction and selection.

Fake Capello.

http://i36.tinypic.com/214plab.gif

[Gino Ginelli]

Have to admit, I was expecting the draw but not with quite so many goals.

While I agree that Italy's major stars like Zambrotta, Pirlo and Buffon are ageing now, the likes of Chiellini, De Rossi and (as you rightly said) Grosso are damn good players. And for an Ireland team with barely any stars, and no real creative outlet, you did pretty damn well against them.

But you definately play the "Italian" way :biggrin:

I read that Trappatoni chooses not to select Reid because he sees him as only being able to play as a "No. 10", which I guess would be in an advanced midfield role(?)

If that's the case then what's wrong with trying that, at least in friendly's?

[choda]

Have to admit, I was expecting the draw but not with quite so many goals.

While I agree that Italy's major stars like Zambrotta, Pirlo and Buffon are ageing now, the likes of Chiellini, De Rossi and (as you rightly said) Grosso are damn good players. And for an Ireland team with barely any stars, and no real creative outlet, you did pretty damn well against them.

But you definately play the "Italian" way :biggrin:

I read that Trappatoni chooses not to select Reid because he sees him as only being able to play as a "No. 10", which I guess would be in an advanced midfield role(?)

If that's the case then what's wrong with trying that, at least in friendly's?

That's well harsh on the Irish players. There seems to be this idea that because the previous managers weren't great that Trap is actually doing a great job.

He isn't. He's on 2 million a year. He's just added work rate, organisation and belief and those take you a long way. But there is more in this team as well.

Robbie Keane is a star (if he scored 40 goals for a bigger country he'd be given the proper amount of praise), Shay Given is a star. And we've two very talented lads sitting out at the moment as well. And good premier league performers almost all over. If you think a damn good team can't be put together from that you are wrong.

And that Italian team was beatable.

[Rojoknapp]

That's well harsh on the Irish players. There seems to be this idea that because the previous managers weren't great that Trap is actually doing a great job.

He isn't. He's on 2 million a year. He's just added work rate, organisation and belief and those take you a long way. But there is more in this team as well.

Robbie Keane is a star (if he scored 40 goals for a bigger country he'd be given the proper amount of praise), Shay Given is a star. And we've two very talented lads sitting out at the moment as well. And good premier league performers almost all over. If you think a damn good team can't be put together from that you are wrong.

And that Italian team was beatable.

Choda, how many of our team would get into the Italian team? Even our two best players (Keane and Given) wouldn't make it because Italy are so strong. Why won't you accept that their players are miles better than ours? We had Whelan, Andrews, McGeady and Lawrence. They had Palombo, Pirlo, Di Natale, De Rossi and Camoranesi. Whether you like the football or not, Trap is doing a fantastic job - it wasn't so long ago we lost 5-2 in Cyprus with the same players, and now we're unbeaten in a group that contains the world champions, and in the play-offs with a game to spare. Andy Reid or not, you gotta hand it to the guy.

[Gino Ginelli]

That's well harsh on the Irish players. There seems to be this idea that because the previous managers weren't great that Trap is actually doing a great job.

He isn't. He's on 2 million a year. He's just added work rate, organisation and belief and those take you a long way. But there is more in this team as well.

Robbie Keane is a star (if he scored 40 goals for a bigger country he'd be given the proper amount of praise), Shay Given is a star. And we've two very talented lads sitting out at the moment as well. And good premier league performers almost all over. If you think a damn good team can't be put together from that you are wrong.

And that Italian team was beatable.

Yeah, I said 'barely' any stars. You have named your only real 2 undeniable stars. The rest are fairly average Prem players, which Trappatoni has got playing in an admittably unattractive but highly effective way.

I thought the two goals you scored were belting! I don't see how you can have any complaints at how well you're playing, or indeed question the approach of one of the most successful (club) managers in history.

[choda]

Choda, how many of our team would get into the Italian team? Even our two best players (Keane and Given) wouldn't make it because Italy are so strong. Why won't you accept that their players are miles better than ours? We had Whelan, Andrews, McGeady and Lawrence. They had Palombo, Pirlo, Di Natale, De Rossi and Camoranesi. Whether you like the football or not, Trap is doing a fantastic job - it wasn't so long ago we lost 5-2 in Cyprus with the same players, and now we're unbeaten in a group that contains the world champions, and in the play-offs with a game to spare. Andy Reid or not, you gotta hand it to the guy.

I do and I don't. What you have to understand is that Steve Staunton hadn't a scoobies. We've never had anything better than a decent coach in McCarthy. And he was still only decent. Don't compare him to them, compare him to people that know how to run a team well, guys like Bruchner, Lippi etc.

Trap is brilliant in some ways. He will build the cake, it won' look nice, it will taste fairly well but he won't add the elements will get the most from what's in the kitchen. And it's not rocket science. He's on 2 million a year ffs. He should be shot for some of what he's doing.

Our only hope is a great midfielder who will take it upon himself to fill in the gaps in the management.

Of course if he actually picks anyone capable.

And Italy are not that strong now. The main difference between Italy and Ireland is that they are picking their best players, have a better coach and play football.

They do have a stronger team and more depth (not by much) but that doesn't mean you can't beat them.

If they were great and were performed to our potential and got a draw or a loss then fair enough. But they were only decent and very beatable.

And Keane would walk into that team. Are you off your rocker? Iaquinta is not on the same level as Robbie Keane. Maybe if his name was Roberto. What's his record and he's mostly a big bumbling heap of ordinaryness.

You are being sucked into big country syndrome. He's not a great player, he's nowhere near world class but because he plays for Italy. He's no Baggio or Vieri.

[choda]

Yeah, I said 'barely' any stars. You have named your only real 2 undeniable stars. The rest are fairly average Prem players, which Trappatoni has got playing in an admittably unattractive but highly effective way.

I thought the two goals you scored were belting! I don't see how you can have any complaints at how well you're playing, or indeed question the approach of one of the most successful (club) managers in history.

Well I disagree. I wouldn't be complaining if I thought he was getting the most from it.

I think he's limited as a coach, but he does some effective things very well. He also does some things very ineffectively. You invite far less pressure when you keep the ball better and we are ignoring basic tactics and good players when it comes to that part. It will hurt you.

It's not just the Irish team. I remember looking at the Welsh team a few years ago and thinking, 'they've a lot of quality and many good premier league players. They could put a top team together.' But they also had a few championship players. We don't have that, we have more depth and a few stars.

As I say if you look at the players Czech produced and Ireland there has been little difference. But they had an excellent coach.

There are few stars in this Italian team and they have as much chance in this world cup as the Czechs did at the last world cup. What they do have is good top flight players all over and a few stars and a great coach, which is pretty much what the Czechs had too.

I believe a great coach will understand team building and a real quality team can be made from a lot of good players, unheralded good players if you will, and a few stars.

Trap understands how to make any group of players to 75% by doing all the basics off the ball and believing they can do well. That alone takes you a long way and is the cause of the confusion imo.

[Rojoknapp]

I do and I don't. What you have to understand is that Steve Staunton hadn't a scoobies. We've never had anything better than a decent coach in McCarthy. And he was still only decent. Don't compare him to them, compare him to people that know how to run a team well, guys like Bruchner, Lippi etc.

Trap is brilliant in some ways. He will build the cake, it won' look nice, it will taste fairly well but he won't add the elements will get the most from what's in the kitchen. And it's not rocket science. He's on 2 million a year ffs. He should be shot for some of what he's doing.

Our only hope is a great midfielder who will take it upon himself to fill in the gaps in the management.

Of course if he actually picks anyone capable.

And Italy are not that strong now. The main difference between Italy and Ireland is that they are picking their best players, have a better coach and play football.

They do have a stronger team and more depth (not by much) but that doesn't mean you can't beat them.

If they were great and were performed to our potential and got a draw or a loss then fair enough. But they were only decent and very beatable.

And Keane would walk into that team. Are you off your rocker? Iaquinta is not on the same level as Robbie Keane. Maybe if his name was Roberto. What's his record and he's mostly a big bumbling heap of ordinaryness.

You are being sucked into big country syndrome. He's not a great player, he's nowhere near world class but because he plays for Italy. He's no Baggio or Vieri.

McCarthy was much better than decent for Ireland - getting us to where he did in 2002, getting us as high as 14th in the world rankings was some achievement. I don't think you're really realising how difficult the Ireland job is. Plenty of countries (Portugal, Argentina and even France come to mind) would swap with us now - one home game left and already in the play-offs. Tell me you wouldn't have taken that before the campaign started?

And Italy do have better players, it's nothing to do with them picking their best ones and us not doing so, they just have better players, pure and simple. As for Iaquinta vs Keane, I don't know where you get the idea that Iaquinta is an ordinary player from. 27 goals in 57 games for Juve isn't bad going if you ask me. He's also got a fantastic touch, which he displayed plenty of times the other night. And I never said he was Baggio or Vieri, I never said he was world class, I just said Keane wouldn't get in that team. And he wouldn't. Especially not in a 4-5-1. And if Pazzini or Quagliarella had been there (I don't know why they weren't) they would have been picked ahead of Keane as well.

You talk as if you think you could do a better job than Trappatoni, as if you could pick a better team, and as if getting them organised and drilled the way that Trap has is the easiest thing in the world. He's making the best of what we've got, and doing a good job of it.

[choda]

McCarthy was much better than decent for Ireland - getting us to where he did in 2002, getting us as high as 14th in the world rankings was some achievement. I don't think you're really realising how difficult the Ireland job is. Plenty of countries (Portugal, Argentina and even France come to mind) would swap with us now - one home game left and already in the play-offs. Tell me you wouldn't have taken that before the campaign started?

And Italy do have better players, it's nothing to do with them picking their best ones and us not doing so, they just have better players, pure and simple. As for Iaquinta vs Keane, I don't know where you get the idea that Iaquinta is an ordinary player from. 27 goals in 57 games for Juve isn't bad going if you ask me. He's also got a fantastic touch, which he displayed plenty of times the other night. And I never said he was Baggio or Vieri, I never said he was world class, I just said Keane wouldn't get in that team. And he wouldn't. Especially not in a 4-5-1. And if Pazzini or Quagliarella had been there (I don't know why they weren't) they would have been picked ahead of Keane as well.

You talk as if you think you could do a better job than Trappatoni, as if you could pick a better team, and as if getting them organised and drilled the way that Trap has is the easiest thing in the world. He's making the best of what we've got, and doing a good job of it.

Qualifying for a world cup and getting to 14th in the rankings with all the players we've produced was not some achievement. It was okay and he had three failed campaigns before that, and one that started horribly before he was sacked.

Brian Kerr actually got and kept us at 13th in the world for a few years.

I judge managers on whether I think they are getting the most out of the resources are not. And I'm not ungenerous either. Harry Redknapp is getting the most out of the spurs resources. Steve Bruce, David Moyes too. Ferguson of course. And Maureen does it, even though he's a prick and it's awful to watch.

Czechs with no better players reached the final of the euros and 2nd in the world rankings. Now that was excellent.

It's bollocks that Trap getting the best of what we've got. He's leaving out one of the best players, a player very suited to high class international football, where it is more about technique and class than other things. He's also making half hearted attempts with the troubled but brilliant Stephan Ireland. And he won't play in such a way that you keep possession decently so you are always liable to give away leads.

It was the same when he was the Italian manager. Do you know how many leads he gave away as their manager as well? And he failed in that job. It's just lovely when you can be compared to Staunton.

And I could pick a better team that Trapattoni. There are f*ck all good managers in football you know. I'm not saying you don't have to learn how to organise and learn all the little nuts and bolts, but what I'm saying is it is not hard to judge from the outside what is being done and whether it is being done well.

Let's not forget he is being paid 2 million a year.

I'd much much prefer to have Harry Redknapp (if he could be cloned). Now he'd build a proper Irish side and get the most out of it... and you wouldn't be frustrated and bored to tears watching it either, which as a purist and a spurs fan is very high on my priority list as well.

If we get to the world cup under Trap what's the point anyway? We will have nothing to offer the tournament except making up the numbers and grinding until we meet some team that is really playing football. They may or may not have better players. Example: We were extremely lucky to beat Cyprus. They played us off the park and cut us open a few times. We were lucky that night, very lucky.

I'm just praying we get a player in the centre of midfield that will start doing the managers job for him.

Btw, any time I've seen Iaquinta on the highest level he's been SHIT, he's no Keane and he's certainly no Vieri.

He has FIVE goals in 35 appearances (just to translate that to 90 appearances that's 12 goals to Keane's 40!). And he had a record of one in three games for 176 games for Udinese (a team rather like Tottenham), which is the same ratio as Mido had for us. His record previous to that was much worse again. Keane's is better and better in general play.

Iaquinta doesn't do much. Italian football is in decline and it is starting to hit the national team as well.

He's only playing one up front because he's actually struggling for strikers.

[choda]

Choda, how many of our team would get into the Italian team? Even our two best players (Keane and Given) wouldn't make it because Italy are so strong. Why won't you accept that their players are miles better than ours? We had Whelan, Andrews, McGeady and Lawrence. They had Palombo, Pirlo, Di Natale, De Rossi and Camoranesi. Whether you like the football or not, Trap is doing a fantastic job - it wasn't so long ago we lost 5-2 in Cyprus with the same players, and now we're unbeaten in a group that contains the world champions, and in the play-offs with a game to spare. Andy Reid or not, you gotta hand it to the guy.

They shouldn't be on the pitch. They are actually the fifth and sixth choice central midfielders. Of course they are poor, the fifth and sixth choice for a country that small will always be average. We can't pull players out of our arse.

Right now when Stephen Reid is injured and Ireland unavailable he should be picking Carsley and Andy Reid. That's miles better.

This Italian team is nothing special, trust me.

Pirlo is a class player. We've our own two players playing like Pirlo in a better league, their names are Stephan Ireland and Andy Reid.

[Rojoknapp]

They shouldn't be on the pitch. They are actually the fifth and sixth choice central midfielders. Of course they are poor, the fifth and sixth choice for a country that small will always be average. We can't pull players out of our arse.

Right now when Stephen Reid is injured and Ireland unavailable he should be picking Carsley and Andy Reid. That's miles better.

This Italian team is nothing special, trust me.

Pirlo is a class player. We've our own two players playing like Pirlo in a better league, their names are Stephan Ireland and Andy Reid.

Even if we had Carsley and and Reid, it would still look a poor midfield in comparison. Even if we had Ireland and Reid it wouldn't match up. And I really don't think Andy Reid could hack the amount of work that Whelan and Andrews get through in the middle of the park. In fact, I know he couldn't. A team like Ireland, trying to compete with a team like Italy needs workhorses in the middle, not players like Andy Reid who will try hard, but eventually be unable to keep up, and who may or may not look fantastic with the ball on any given day. Of course, Stephen Ireland and Steven Reid would fit the bill and be a dream combination. But sadly, that seems unlikely to ever happen.

[Gino Ginelli]

Not wanting to get in on the Ireland issue (don't watch enough of them to be able to comment), but:

1. The Czech Republic were 2nd in the world with Pavel Nedved, Jan Koller, Tomas Rosicky and Petr Cech. All of whom were among the best players in Europe (in Nedved's case the world)

2. I'd love to see Choda as a pundit on Soccer Saturday or something (I really mean that) because he's capable of some brilliantly controversial opinions. Trappatoni limited?! He'd prefer Redknapp, a man who's won an FA Cup, over probably the most successful club manager in history? A man who along with the likes of Bobby Robson pretty much invented the approach to the modern game?! Startling!

[Rojoknapp]

Not wanting to get in on the Ireland issue (don't watch enough of them to be able to comment), but:

1. The Czech Republic were 2nd in the world with Pavel Nedved, Jan Koller, Tomas Rosicky and Petr Cech. All of whom were among the best players in Europe (in Nedved's case the world)

2. I'd love to see Choda as a pundit on Soccer Saturday or something (I really mean that) because he's capable of some brilliantly controversial opinions. Trappatoni limited?! He'd prefer Redknapp, a man who's won an FA Cup, over probably the most successful club manager in history? A man who along with the likes of Bobby Robson pretty much invented the approach to the modern game?! Startling!

That is but a brief introduction to Choda-ism :001_rolleyes:

[choda]

Not wanting to get in on the Ireland issue (don't watch enough of them to be able to comment), but:

1. The Czech Republic were 2nd in the world with Pavel Nedved, Jan Koller, Tomas Rosicky and Petr Cech. All of whom were among the best players in Europe (in Nedved's case the world)

2. I'd love to see Choda as a pundit on Soccer Saturday or something (I really mean that) because he's capable of some brilliantly controversial opinions. Trappatoni limited?! He'd prefer Redknapp, a man who's won an FA Cup, over probably the most successful club manager in history? A man who along with the likes of Bobby Robson pretty much invented the approach to the modern game?! Startling!

1. We produced Roy Keane, Robbie Keane, Shay Given, Stephen Carr and Damien Duff in the same period who were just as good if you go man for man. I don't know what your point is. And we've solid defenders like Dunne and O'Shea. Not to mention Andy Reid and Ireland who are particularly talent, but granted still largely unproven.

2. And Harry Redknapp is a better manager than Trappatoni. Harry instills all the work rate, organisation and belief he does but he also gets your team playing football and keeping possession well.

And Bobby Robson is a better manager than Trap without a doubt. Robson was unlucky to not win the world cup and Trapattoni lost to Korea.

I don't care what he's won, I never saw him win anything so I can't comment on that but I can comment on the fact that he's an old fart now and he's messing up my national team.

Some managers are better at club level because they are very inflexible and can buy players to suit their way. Sven was like that as well.

It's very easy imo, like Rojo is saying to simply comment on what has gone on. What has gone on is Staunton was a shambles, Kerr was a hoky poky good league of Ireland coach and it is often apt for most people to say well the players are shit as well. It's the short sighted comment. It was the same with Tottenham.

We were bottom and with largely the same squad we are now third and suddenly they are very talented again. It didn't change, as I said at the time then as well, but most people were knee jerking and just saying they are shit and the squad is no better than when Levy arrived. People generally don't keep their cool, which is the problem.

These players are good players, and they can play. I'm not discounting the fact that Italy is a big nation and has a rich football history. I just know we can play better. And if there was ever a time to take Italy it is now.

And Whelan and Andrews wouldn't have so much fecking work to do if they showed for the ball and we kept it a lot better.

It's not imbalanced to put a passer with a defensive midfielder. It's actually common sense when the passer is overall a far better player and you've no one showing for the ball. Every player has things he is good at and things he is not good at. Overall Reid is clearly very superior to Whelan and Andrews and we'd keep the ball far better and still work hard as a team with a good balance. He's even lost two stone and he always put in a shift when he was instructed too anyway. Now he could definitely last the pace. Overall it would definitely be better. It's common sense. We keep giving up leads with this very limited workhorse combination that supposedly works a system but yet gets deeper and deeper as it gives up more and more possession and the pressure eventually kills us. It's not rocket science.

And if you think we can't keep the ball well when you play it through someone like Reid and get it to Duff, McGeady, Keane, Doyle then you don't really know what you are talking about. These guys can play.

I'm not saying they are not up against it against big countries but we can beat these teams as well as Ireland have proven many times in the last twenty years. We've beaten England (2 wins and three draws last five games), Spain, Holland, Italy and we've had a shitload of draws with Holland, England, Portugal, Germany, Italy, Bulgaria, Cameroon, France, you name it.

They find it very hard to beat us. The 2002 team is very similar to the one we have now and that team beat Holland, drew with Germany at the world cup (which is always a good achievement and they reached the final) and hammered Spain but just were so unlucky not to kill them off (remember Harte missing a penalty in regular time) and we had other chances. We were just all over them in the latter stages of a world cup and they hung on by their fingernails to get penalties and scraped through.

It's a question of seeing what the team is really capable of. And it is certainly capable of being an outsider and at the very least gaining moral respect.

I can't respect this manager. It's bullshit.

[choda]

That is but a brief introduction to Choda-ism :001_rolleyes:

Johnny Giles, one of the best minds in the game and the best pundit by a country mile says most of the same things. It's really Gilesism if anything kid.

[Rojoknapp]

And Bobby Robson is a better manager than Trap without a doubt. Robson was unlucky to not win the world cup and Trapattoni lost to Korea.

You talk to me about getting facts right - have a look at this. Italy didn't stand much of a chance to be honest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzw8xboAEl4

They should have had a penalty and instead got a red card for their best player. And a perfectly good goal disallowed.

I'm not agreeing with the guy saying Korea fixed the game, just that the refereeing was diabolical.

[choda]

You talk to me about getting facts right - have a look at this. Italy didn't stand much of a chance to be honest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzw8xboAEl4

They should have had a penalty and instead got a red card for their best player. And a perfectly good goal disallowed.

I'm not agreeing with the guy saying Korea fixed the game, just that the refereeing was diabolical.

Italy were still crap under Trappatoni. It wasn't just about one game, they were never really impressive. The Italians were pretty pissed off with him, which is why he was sacked.

If I remember correctly the Koreans actually matched them in many ways.

That group of players well managed would've played Korea off the park, which didn't happen, even though they were unlucky not to get a narrow win.

[Gino Ginelli]

Please do some research on Trappatoni, then come back.

None of those players were or are better than Nedved.

[choda]

Please do some research on Trappatoni, then come back.

None of those players were or are better than Nedved.

Roy Keane was one of the best players in the world in his pomp, hugely influential, same as Nedved. And you ignore all the rest of the players, it's about comparing the group and not saying one player is better than all of them???

You can acknowledge a good point you know. I do that if it is merited, even if it means I was wrong.

Roy Keane was clearly on the highest level too and the players I've showed are clearly similar in ability, I don't know how anyone can't acknowledge that.

And I know all about Trappatoni, what's your point?

If Harry had the jobs he had he'd have done just as well. And in international management where you have to be flexible and you have to manage certain players he'd be much better.

Trap is an old coach, he hasn't really moved with the times. He was a very good club manager in the time of the pass back and he was lucky to manage great teams. He got momentum from it as well, more players and other big clubs.

But he failed as Italy manager, badly. And if he is so good why could be only get club jobs like Wolfsburg in recent years? And how did we get him for 2 million per year when other coaches of supposedly similar standing cost more?

Surely Ireland could only afford a great coach when he is young, hasn't managed big clubs yet or is Irish and not as interested in the money as a foreigner would be.

[Rojoknapp]

Surely Ireland could only afford a great coach when he is young, hasn't managed big clubs yet or is Irish and not as interested in the money as a foreigner would be.

You're absolutely right. Let's get Steve Staunton.

[choda]

You're absolutely right. Let's get Steve Staunton.

Read the sentence again. How on earth do you think Staunton is a great coach?

Staunton couldn't even organise the basics of defending and what to do when you don't have the ball.

Staunton had the bravery to do one thing right though, as shockinly bad as he was: When we played Carsely and JoS in midfield it did finally dawn on him that we had a problem passing the ball and had no one to link the play and he started to pick Reid in the middle and we got better, better in possession and still the same defensively.

[Rojoknapp]

Read the sentence again. How on earth do you think Staunton is a great coach?

Staunton couldn't even organise the basics of defending and what to do when you don't have the ball.

But my point was - how many great, young, Irish managers are there? How many even half decent Irish managers are there? And how do you suggest the FAI see the future and find an Irishman who will be a great manager? Surely, having not been to a major tournament in 8 years, it is safer (and necessary) to hire a proven manager? And hey presto, we're in the play-offs.

[choda]

But my point was - how many great, young, Irish managers are there? How many even half decent Irish managers are there? And how do you suggest the FAI see the future and find an Irishman who will be a great manager? Surely, having not been to a major tournament in 8 years, it is safer (and necessary) to hire a proven manager? And hey presto, we're in the play-offs.

There are a few better options for 2 million a year, that you could probably get. He is a good manager, he's brilliant in ways, but he's also pretty limited and in international football he brings a set of issues with him that cause a lot of problems.

He's better than what we had in the last two, it's just a great pity he can't do a few more things like a great coach and we'd have one hell of a setup for a small country.

The only person that has been as good as Ireland manager is Big Mick. And at least you could watch his team and be proud of it. We played football.

But we've never ever gotten it right in bringing in a manager. But I have to say you can't blame then for appointing Trapattoni. I'd have expected far better from him. He's only decent internationally and in this day and age I'd say he's only good at club level too, not great.

He strikes me as deeply stubborn to a large fault and he would never adapt to changes and situations that need a far more flexible approach.