First major question marks over Harry?

[choda]

He's made a total hash of the last two games imo. Granted he was playing two of the best sides in europe, and who ever finishes ahead of Chelsea will win the title and I don't think anyone will. They could get 96 points.

But it's the fact that we didn't play a good game at all, in either game. We made many mistakes and we have the talent to make these games tight, if not beat them.

You have to have serious questions over the performance and was down to the manager. I think the players really tried in this game but it wasn't setup right and Chelsea are hard enough to play.

Today I think he started a viable team on paper even though starting Hudd against a team like Chelsea is always a risk for me.

The christmas tree was a good idea imo as I said before the match IF you use it to get down the sides with the three strikers and link the play with Keane. The only thing we did was link the play with Keane, a bit, but it was all so tight in the middle. We needed to stretch them out. I mean wasn't it so obvious?

Fair enough first 25 minutes, but why didn't he change it? Go 352/343 maybe, then you have bodies in the middle, can mark up and have a spare man at the back and can attack their only width, the full backs, with wingers.

That would also spread the game, their midfield would be forced to stretch and you can get much more ball into space for the strikers. It was all through the eye of a needle.

Palacios and Jenas worked hard but they struggled badly to get the ball into the strikers as it was so congested and they often gave the ball away as a result and admirably then chased it down and got some tackles in, particularly Palacios. When we did get it to Keane he set off some good moves, but it was too hard to play all down the middle against a packed midfield.

As for Huddlestone, what a waste of time it nearly always is playing him against the top sides. Why? And why not take him off at half time when it is clear he a passenger?

Why does he bring on Hutton instead of Naughton? Hutton is just a liability these days. He's living on his reputation before his injuries. How many major mistakes does he have to make to stop getting picked ahead of a promising right back.

He doesn't he even try a very talented but slow Corluka in midfield where he might be able to use the great attributes he has to proper influence.

In defence he is too slow to support attacks and it weakens our ability to stretch teams on the overlap and drag midfielders out, one thing a natural full back will bring.

He's open to counters and he gets done for his lack of pace. He looks good at rb at times but he's just about getting away with it due to ability. Not a defender for me, something that becomes all the more clear when the big man moves inside and then he is all over the place.

A small Cudicini in goal I've suddenly realised is awfully suspect despite some good agile saves recently that were masking some deeper realities including a lack of reach, size and presence. He's a weak keeper that has been on the bench far too long.

Hutton on the right, Corluka and Cudicini in goal filled me with dred. I knew it was asking for big trouble, and a lot of it was avoidable by better team selection.

The only plus point for me was that Keane is proving again that he can still make us tick when he's in the hole and you get the ball into him and Crouch was good when he came on. He CAN play and do really well if you give him good balls on the ground or in the air, just don't aimlessly lump it at him and he's a great impact sub.

JD was very poor, he didn't look lively today at all, granted he got little service but I do wonder about the merits of Keane and Crouch as a pair for the bigger games when there is more imperative on getting and keeping better possession up the pitch and quality link up to open up tighter defences. But after 30 minutes of this game I'd have gone 343 with all three up front and I think that was a system that was made to trouble Chelsea.

Having said all of that it's very hard to get a result away to the top four when the referees are that appalling. It's almost like match fixing at this stage. Was it just me or was that yet another staggering refereeing display?

Howard Webb is supposed to be the top referee, he's both clueless and spineless. :stupid:

Boswinga doesn't a yellow for the most blatent yellow you've ever seen where has three hooks at the leg to make sure he isn't getting away on a break and Jenas gets booked for a hard but honest attempt that was a tad late.

Not to mention the penalty. If that is at the other end it is a guaranteed penalty. If he sure its a dive then book him. He wasn't sure and so why didn't he stop, think and ask the linesman? And so on. If it was one or two things you could understand it.

All in all I found the last two games worrying. I always thought Harry would do well and the question mark was how he'd do when it reached this point but I was starting to think Harry was as good as Fergie or Wenger.

He was doing so much right but the last two games in particular have been a catalog of errors on his part and some other more long term large question marks such as Chalie as a defender, loaning out JoH, not giving Gio more time on the pitch, having too much faith in Hudd and Jenas, not buying another cm all start to crop up as bigger questions of how far he can go.

I hope this isn't just like Jol where the first year he does fantastically well and sees the visible, manages with common sense but then after time gets to close to it all, loses the outside perspective and can't see the forest from the trees anymore.

I think Harry is better than Jol anyway and will learn from mistakes but the fact that he made so many errors in the last two games and continues to ignore certain possibilities makes me worry about how far we can go with him.

It's would be a pity if it peters out to just okay because we had so much optimism that he was looking like doing a really special job. Maybe he still will, but I'm just saying it was bad the last two games and worrying.

What do you think?

[Milney yid]

I understand your points, but think that hopefully Harry will have learnt a thing or two from these last two games, and I certainly still have full faith in him. We can't start questioning a manager whos brought us from bottom of the table to up there competing with the likes of Chelsea and Man U, even if we do seem still some way off them.

IMO Huddlestone definately needs to be dropped, he's just not good enough, and I think Gomes will come in for Cudicini soon. Lets face it, good as our squad is, it's not yet ready to compete with Man U and Chelsea. I think we run Liverpool and Arsenal close, but the prior two have got so much strength in depth, you can find very little to fault them about.

As long as we are up near the top this season, I don't mind too much losing to the likes of Man U and Chelsea at the moment. Martin Jol got sacked for not getting near enough the top four, and look what happened after that. Lets not make the same mistake with 'Arry.

[choda]

I understand your points, but think that hopefully Harry will have learnt a thing or two from these last two games, and I certainly still have full faith in him. We can't start questioning a manager whos brought us from bottom of the table to up there competing with the likes of Chelsea and Man U, even if we do seem still some way off them.

IMO Huddlestone definately needs to be dropped, he's just not good enough, and I think Gomes will come in for Cudicini soon. Lets face it, good as our squad is, it's not yet ready to compete with Man U and Chelsea. I think we run Liverpool and Arsenal close, but the prior two have got so much strength in depth, you can find very little to fault them about.

As long as we are up near the top this season, I don't mind too much losing to the likes of Man U and Chelsea at the moment. Martin Jol got sacked for not getting near enough the top four, and look what happened after that. Lets not make the same mistake with 'Arry.

Well I totally understand that point of view, but we can't make more of those types of mistakes and if we do we won't give sufficient challenge which would be disappointing.

The reason I'm saying this is because we all knew Harry would take us up to the top six with the squad we had and the money in the bank, but the question was always what would happen when he got us there. Where next? Are you good enough?

And look at the squad, it's good enough if you go man for man with Pool, City and Arsenal.

Granted they get done by Man U and Chelsea too, or it looks like will get done. But we could have been hockeyed last two games, when I believe had the manager done a better job we could have made the key moments in our favour. Ancellotti and Fergie were far cuter than he was and you can't afford that on top of them having two established big shot teams.

As for Jol he left us in the bottom of the table so I've little sympathy with him. His last 15 months was one mistake after another and he certainly wasn't getting the most from what he had and progressing anymore, he was falling fast.

That's not something I expect from Harry, nor that he will be sacked.

But I am questioning is whether he can really push us into the mix, and with the squad and resources he has he really should imo.

Now we still might finish sixth but if we look as good as the other teams then I'm still happy, a bit more luck and you could have done it.

I'm not saying he can't or won't do it but I'm just staggered at some of the mistakes he's made and the unwillingness to look at other very questionable situations in team and squad selection.

[earl warwick]

"A small Cudicini in goal I've suddenly realised is awfully suspect despite some good agile saves recently that were masking some deeper realities including a lack of reach, size and presence. He's a weak keeper that has been on the bench far too long."


Eh? He's 6/2, Given is 6/0. Given conceded 4 today, but no one's saying he has a lack of reach or size. Once both King and Bassong had gone off, CC looked very exposed. Taking Palacios out of the centre, and then losing both CBs, gave a licence for Chelsea to over-run us in the 2nd half.

Shots on target 15-4
Shots off target 11-5
Corners 11-3

[Milney yid]

All good points, but at the end of the day can you think of an available manager who can do a better job for us? I still think we have a realistic chance of breaking into the top 4 anyway, as I said, in my opinion our squad can match or very nearly match both Liverpools and Arsenals. I think the big difference Harry had made is that we can now go into matches away to the likes of Bolton and Stoke feeling confident of a result, whereas before we looked beaten before the match started.

[choda]

"A small Cudicini in goal I've suddenly realised is awfully suspect despite some good agile saves recently that were masking some deeper realities including a lack of reach, size and presence. He's a weak keeper that has been on the bench far too long."


Eh? He's 6/2, Given is 6/0. Given conceded 4 today, but no one's saying he has a lack of reach or size. Once both King and Bassong had gone off, CC looked very exposed. Taking Palacios out of the centre, and then losing both CBs, gave a licence for Chelsea to over-run us in the 2nd half.

Shots on target 15-4
Shots off target 11-5
Corners 11-3

Well he looks small and his presence and reach has to be questioned imo. And his distribution is average.

Are you really comparing Given to Cudicini? Given is world class, in the top three in the world with Buffon and Cassillas and kept the score down today.

He kept a circus run Newcastle up for that last few years nearly on his own. I can't remember the last bad game Given had for Ireland, actually I can't remember the last performance that wasn't near perfect. He's fantastic.

Cudicini made poor efforts for the goals again today, he can go under the radar imo a bit like a striker like Defoe when he has a bad game and not get criticised because he didn't do anything stand out wrong, but he didn't really do his job or make a good enough effort at it.

He was weak today, he didn't come properly for any of the goals, he helped leak goals Given was very good.

Cuda lacks presence and courage to come and take the ball or block when he should. That can't be said of top keepers like Given.

[earl warwick]

The point is, he's clearly not smaller than Given, and I doubt he has any less reach. He can't be blamed for the goals. Even the 2nd one, a good low save from Drogba, was retrieved by Lampard with no defender reacting quickly. Gomes could have possibly recovered quickly enough to push it out, but I don't see how he could have saved the other 2.

Given was actually receiving some criticism today for not coming for crosses or reacting quickly enough. Mind you, at that stage ManU were getting a corner about every 2 minutes for a 20 minute period.

[choda]

All good points, but at the end of the day can you think of an available manager who can do a better job for us? I still think we have a realistic chance of breaking into the top 4 anyway, as I said, in my opinion our squad can match or very nearly match both Liverpools and Arsenals. I think the big difference Harry had made is that we can now go into matches away to the likes of Bolton and Stoke feeling confident of a result, whereas before we looked beaten before the match started.

I'm not saying sack him I'm just saying I hope this doesn't indicate limitations. I hope it is just part of getting to know his team or bad days at the office.

It's far too early to even assess how Harry has done, and if you were it's been utterly brilliant. I'm just taking some performance indications as a eye for the future and the end of the year.

A few more brilliant decisions and I think we could be really in the thick of it is all I'm saying. But we may have to be content being on the coatails of some vunerable Arsenal and Pool squads, which would be disappointing after brilliant work so far.

Not saying there is anyone better available or long term he won't sort everything but I think he could dead eye dick a few more things and increase our chances this year.

[StevenYTID]

He's made a total hash of the last two games imo. Granted he was playing two of the best sides in europe, and who ever finishes ahead of Chelsea will win the title and I don't think anyone will. They could get 96 points.

But it's the fact that we didn't play a good game at all, in either game. We made many mistakes and we have the talent to make these games tight, if not beat them.

You have to have serious questions over the performance and was down to the manager. I think the players really tried in this game but it wasn't setup right and Chelsea are hard enough to play.

Today I think he started a viable team on paper even though starting Hudd against a team like Chelsea is always a risk for me.

The christmas tree was a good idea imo as I said before the match IF you use it to get down the sides with the three strikers and link the play with Keane. The only thing we did was link the play with Keane, a bit, but it was all so tight in the middle. We needed to stretch them out. I mean wasn't it so obvious?

Fair enough first 25 minutes, but why didn't he change it? Go 352/343 maybe, then you have bodies in the middle, can mark up and have a spare man at the back and can attack their only width, the full backs, with wingers.

That would also spread the game, their midfield would be forced to stretch and you can get much more ball into space for the strikers. It was all through the eye of a needle.

Palacios and Jenas worked hard but they struggled badly to get the ball into the strikers as it was so congested and they often gave the ball away as a result and admirably then chased it down and got some tackles in, particularly Palacios. When we did get it to Keane he set off some good moves, but it was too hard to play all down the middle against a packed midfield.

As for Huddlestone, what a waste of time it nearly always is playing him against the top sides. Why? And why not take him off at half time when it is clear he a passenger?

Why does he bring on Hutton instead of Naughton? Hutton is just a liability these days. He's living on his reputation before his injuries. How many major mistakes does he have to make to stop getting picked ahead of a promising right back.

He doesn't he even try a very talented but slow Corluka in midfield where he might be able to use the great attributes he has to proper influence.

In defence he is too slow to support attacks and it weakens our ability to stretch teams on the overlap and drag midfielders out, one thing a natural full back will bring.

He's open to counters and he gets done for his lack of pace. He looks good at rb at times but he's just about getting away with it due to ability. Not a defender for me, something that becomes all the more clear when the big man moves inside and then he is all over the place.

A small Cudicini in goal I've suddenly realised is awfully suspect despite some good agile saves recently that were masking some deeper realities including a lack of reach, size and presence. He's a weak keeper that has been on the bench far too long.

Hutton on the right, Corluka and Cudicini in goal filled me with dred. I knew it was asking for big trouble, and a lot of it was avoidable by better team selection.

The only plus point for me was that Keane is proving again that he can still make us tick when he's in the hole and you get the ball into him and Crouch was good when he came on. He CAN play and do really well if you give him good balls on the ground or in the air, just don't aimlessly lump it at him and he's a great impact sub.

JD was very poor, he didn't look lively today at all, granted he got little service but I do wonder about the merits of Keane and Crouch as a pair for the bigger games when there is more imperative on getting and keeping better possession up the pitch and quality link up to open up tighter defences. But after 30 minutes of this game I'd have gone 343 with all three up front and I think that was a system that was made to trouble Chelsea.

Having said all of that it's very hard to get a result away to the top four when the referees are that appalling. It's almost like match fixing at this stage. Was it just me or was that yet another staggering refereeing display?

Howard Webb is supposed to be the top referee, he's both clueless and spineless. :stupid:

Boswinga doesn't a yellow for the most blatent yellow you've ever seen where has three hooks at the leg to make sure he isn't getting away on a break and Jenas gets booked for a hard but honest attempt that was a tad late.

Not to mention the penalty. If that is at the other end it is a guaranteed penalty. If he sure its a dive then book him. He wasn't sure and so why didn't he stop, think and ask the linesman? And so on. If it was one or two things you could understand it.

All in all I found the last two games worrying. I always thought Harry would do well and the question mark was how he'd do when it reached this point but I was starting to think Harry was as good as Fergie or Wenger.

He was doing so much right but the last two games in particular have been a catalog of errors on his part and some other more long term large question marks such as Chalie as a defender, loaning out JoH, not giving Gio more time on the pitch, having too much faith in Hudd and Jenas, not buying another cm all start to crop up as bigger questions of how far he can go.

I hope this isn't just like Jol where the first year he does fantastically well and sees the visible, manages with common sense but then after time gets to close to it all, loses the outside perspective and can't see the trees from the forest anymore.

I think Harry is better than Jol anyway and will learn from mistakes but the fact that he made so many errors in the last two games and continues to ignore certain possibilities makes me worry about how far we can go with him.

It's would be a pity if it peters out to just okay because we had so much optimism that he was looking like doing a really special job. Maybe he still will, but I'm just saying it was bad the last two games and worrying.

What do you think?

I'm sorry but I think we did play well today , in the first half at least we thought toe to toe with them and were very organised , so I don't see why you said we didn't play well , we did we were just unlucky.

Yes Harry playing Jenas and Huddlestone was wrong , they should of started with a natural winger Nicky or Gio would of been much better than either of them on the wing , so thats the main problem I saw. Jenas was ineffective...AGAIN. You can't play that formation against Chelsea we'd get torn apart on the wing.

Palacios was our best player on the field today and it's the usual cliche ....oh but Jenas works so hard. I know he tracked back and covered ground but fck me his passing was woeful. I could of cried when Hutton came on god he's shocking. It's not just you howard webb is a sh!te referee. Although I agree with every other part of your post. We will be the best we've been since Jol arrived , and I think even better with Harry , you gotta break a few eggs to make an omlette so if by making a few mistakes you find out how the game is to be played , then so be it.

[mjbmedia]

Whilst everyone learns , even Fergie, if Harrys making these mistakes with all his expereince then that really is worrying.

Dont play Keane out of position when we have at least 2 left midfielders who should step in instead (Gio,Nicky, & Bale nearly back)

Lennon has been devasting on the right all season and for England, so i know, lets play him behind JD, that didnt work well did it, he did move him but then it seemed Lennon could go all over the place and often the space down the right was there to exploit but Corluka isnt quick enough to be able to do so.

The thing that really reallty pissed me off with this game though, is Keane, ****ing ****! Drogba well known for going down and staying down for nothing, so dont ever kick the ball out for him you stupid ****ing ****. Honestly if he ever does that again when we are in that position Id rather we gave him away on a free transfer, **** the other player, play the game for your own team, its not down to you to stop the game.

Lastly Webb, not with the pen decision which he got wrong, but with Bassong, ****ing obvious he was out cold as soon as his head hit the floor, but no lets chat to Anelka for 2 minutes , give him a chance to swallow his tongue, then decide to go look at him.

We got what we deserved out of this, nothing , we should have got a lot more but for some reason we decided not to play to our strengths.

Pissed me right off

[olly27]

Were to start. I think there is a bit of an over reaction to all this. We had a go and in the first twenty minutes I thought we were excellent. Chelsea were no great shakes today, but were utterly professional - nothing exceptional. Losing King exacerbated everything, not in a million years would the Drogba goal have happened had Ledley been there and not Corluka.

There might of been an excuse for not starting Kranjcar against Man U but why not against Chelsea? Why did Harry buy him?

Hutton got turned again at one point, the guy is a complete liability. Very surpised Harry didn't play a straight forward 4-4-2....with Lennon right, Niko left and Jenas and Palacios in the centre. Losing Modric has totally wrecked the balance of the side and obviously the ability to hold the ball and pass with purpose. Losing Modric is a double whammy.

I hope Harry has learned a lot from the last two games. Its happened and we move on. It will be a long week and I know if we dont respond with a resounding win against Burnley it could prove to be a mixed bag of a season. Burnley is a must win for me, in terms of our ambitions this season. We need to respond, and to respond emphatically for the good of the team.

At the end of the day we are a work in progress and we have competed against sides which are the finishd articles - more or less- in the last two games. Chelsea and Man U are stronger than Liverpool - no doubt.

We have still had the most difficult start to the season out of anyone. Who else had to play three of the top 4 in their first 6 games? I think only Burnley were the other side to be handed such a tough task.

Its funny the way football works. We could of drawn againt Pool, beat Hull, drawn against the Pikeys...beat Birmingham - 8 points - drawn againt Man U and Chelsea - be sitting on 10 points now and we would all be talking oursevles up - unbeaten. Ok you would take confidence from the fact of holding the top 2 - but we have taken 12 points from 18 - with that tough start! Its bloody impressive. I know most are dissapointed in the manner in which we lost, and Harry has to take some responsibility for getting tactics wrong but he has produced before against the top 4, last season he did very well.

The test starts now. I just hope Woodgate and Dawson are back for Bolton, or at least Woodgate. I think we can still beat Burnley with a patched up defence by simply out scoring them. I am expecting at least 10 points from the next four fixtures which puts us on 22 points from a possible 30. Thats good going, very good and then its welcome back Mr Modric.

Harry has to get team selection right from here on in. I just hope Nugent isn't going be our nemisis this weekend!

[earl warwick]

"We have still had the most difficult start to the season out of anyone. Who else had to play three of the top 4 in their first 6 games? I think only Burnley were the other side to be handed such a tough task."

Funnily enough, they only did ever so slightly worse than us, and 2 of theirs were away, whilst only one of ours was. 3 points and minus 6 on GD(minus 4 for us).

The latest on Woody is pretty bleak:

Redknapp said: "Woodgate's nowhere near playing again. He went to see a specialist again yesterday and he just can't train. We haven't got to the bottom of the injury at all, what's causing him discomfort. Dawson has a chance, he's the one."

[choda]

I'm sorry but I think we did play well today , in the first half at least we thought toe to toe with them and were very organised , so I don't see why you said we didn't play well , we did we were just unlucky.

Yes Harry playing Jenas and Huddlestone was wrong , they should of started with a natural winger Nicky or Gio would of been much better than either of them on the wing , so thats the main problem I saw. Jenas was ineffective...AGAIN. You can't play that formation against Chelsea we'd get torn apart on the wing.

Palacios was our best player on the field today and it's the usual cliche ....oh but Jenas works so hard. I know he tracked back and covered ground but fck me his passing was woeful. I could of cried when Hutton came on god he's shocking. It's not just you howard webb is a sh!te referee. Although I agree with every other part of your post. We will be the best we've been since Jol arrived , and I think even better with Harry , you gotta break a few eggs to make an omlette so if by making a few mistakes you find out how the game is to be played , then so be it.

Well the reason I put the emphasis strongly on what the manager did is because I DID think the players had a go. But I felt they were hamstrung by tactics that played into Chelsea's hands. And Hudd should never have played or at least never stayed on past half time.

Palacios worked his socks off and tried to make passes but every time he looked up it was a sea of blue because we didn't have anyone wide to stretch them. Passing through it was difficult. And when we got it to Keane he brought the play together well, even though he was also faced with a similar issue of a narrow attack against a tucked defence. King was imperious, Bassong was strong. I think we had some players at the top of their game and the most of the rest still fairly sharp, but the problems in the tactics made their efforts look ineffectual and to me it wasn't their fault.

Better tactics and team selection and I think you could have had some memorable King, Palacios and Keane performances today. They looked ready and were playing well.

I'm not a fan of Jenas either, but I didn't think he was a passenger like Hudd. He does have effectiveness in these games as he won't get overun off the ball. He's not going to make big telling tackles that dominate and take control or get on the ball and dictate but he will put in a serious shift and close space down. That is useful against teams that if you're not careful can give you the run around with moving the ball quickly, good movements and athleticism.

[inthewoods]

He's made a total hash of the last two games imo. Granted he was playing two of the best sides in europe, and who ever finishes ahead of Chelsea will win the title and I don't think anyone will. They could get 96 points.

But it's the fact that we didn't play a good game at all, in either game. We made many mistakes and we have the talent to make these games tight, if not beat them.

You have to have serious questions over the performance and was down to the manager. I think the players really tried in this game but it wasn't setup right and Chelsea are hard enough to play.

Today I think he started a viable team on paper even though starting Hudd against a team like Chelsea is always a risk for me.

The christmas tree was a good idea imo as I said before the match IF you use it to get down the sides with the three strikers and link the play with Keane. The only thing we did was link the play with Keane, a bit, but it was all so tight in the middle. We needed to stretch them out. I mean wasn't it so obvious?

Fair enough first 25 minutes, but why didn't he change it? Go 352/343 maybe, then you have bodies in the middle, can mark up and have a spare man at the back and can attack their only width, the full backs, with wingers.

That would also spread the game, their midfield would be forced to stretch and you can get much more ball into space for the strikers. It was all through the eye of a needle.

Palacios and Jenas worked hard but they struggled badly to get the ball into the strikers as it was so congested and they often gave the ball away as a result and admirably then chased it down and got some tackles in, particularly Palacios. When we did get it to Keane he set off some good moves, but it was too hard to play all down the middle against a packed midfield.

As for Huddlestone, what a waste of time it nearly always is playing him against the top sides. Why? And why not take him off at half time when it is clear he a passenger?

Why does he bring on Hutton instead of Naughton? Hutton is just a liability these days. He's living on his reputation before his injuries. How many major mistakes does he have to make to stop getting picked ahead of a promising right back.

He doesn't he even try a very talented but slow Corluka in midfield where he might be able to use the great attributes he has to proper influence.

In defence he is too slow to support attacks and it weakens our ability to stretch teams on the overlap and drag midfielders out, one thing a natural full back will bring.

He's open to counters and he gets done for his lack of pace. He looks good at rb at times but he's just about getting away with it due to ability. Not a defender for me, something that becomes all the more clear when the big man moves inside and then he is all over the place.

A small Cudicini in goal I've suddenly realised is awfully suspect despite some good agile saves recently that were masking some deeper realities including a lack of reach, size and presence. He's a weak keeper that has been on the bench far too long.

Hutton on the right, Corluka and Cudicini in goal filled me with dred. I knew it was asking for big trouble, and a lot of it was avoidable by better team selection.

The only plus point for me was that Keane is proving again that he can still make us tick when he's in the hole and you get the ball into him and Crouch was good when he came on. He CAN play and do really well if you give him good balls on the ground or in the air, just don't aimlessly lump it at him and he's a great impact sub.

JD was very poor, he didn't look lively today at all, granted he got little service but I do wonder about the merits of Keane and Crouch as a pair for the bigger games when there is more imperative on getting and keeping better possession up the pitch and quality link up to open up tighter defences. But after 30 minutes of this game I'd have gone 343 with all three up front and I think that was a system that was made to trouble Chelsea.

Having said all of that it's very hard to get a result away to the top four when the referees are that appalling. It's almost like match fixing at this stage. Was it just me or was that yet another staggering refereeing display?

Howard Webb is supposed to be the top referee, he's both clueless and spineless. :stupid:

Boswinga doesn't a yellow for the most blatent yellow you've ever seen where has three hooks at the leg to make sure he isn't getting away on a break and Jenas gets booked for a hard but honest attempt that was a tad late.

Not to mention the penalty. If that is at the other end it is a guaranteed penalty. If he sure its a dive then book him. He wasn't sure and so why didn't he stop, think and ask the linesman? And so on. If it was one or two things you could understand it.

All in all I found the last two games worrying. I always thought Harry would do well and the question mark was how he'd do when it reached this point but I was starting to think Harry was as good as Fergie or Wenger.

He was doing so much right but the last two games in particular have been a catalog of errors on his part and some other more long term large question marks such as Chalie as a defender, loaning out JoH, not giving Gio more time on the pitch, having too much faith in Hudd and Jenas, not buying another cm all start to crop up as bigger questions of how far he can go.

I hope this isn't just like Jol where the first year he does fantastically well and sees the visible, manages with common sense but then after time gets to close to it all, loses the outside perspective and can't see the trees from the forest anymore.

I think Harry is better than Jol anyway and will learn from mistakes but the fact that he made so many errors in the last two games and continues to ignore certain possibilities makes me worry about how far we can go with him.

It's would be a pity if it peters out to just okay because we had so much optimism that he was looking like doing a really special job. Maybe he still will, but I'm just saying it was bad the last two games and worrying.

What do you think?

Im sorry...what? Robbie Keane can still make us tick? Im sorry but robbie keane did not make us tick. We should not be building our team around Robbie Keane. Robbie keane was ****ing shite today lad. And he was shite against United. The only thing he did today was almost winning a penalty.

I said on this very forum after the united game that Redknapp has to show a bit of balls and drop keane against chelsea. Defoe is scoring goals and crouch has been dangerous every time he has came on for us. All he had to do was start crouch and defoe up front and play with a solid midfield preferably with kranjcar on the left. Keane and defoe up front was NEVER EVER going to work. As soon as crouch came on today he created chances and proved to be a problem. Defoe has been our consistent goal scorer this season and when redknapp finally realised that crouch should be playing who did he take off? Defoe. Surprise, surprise. Why? Because old 'arry knows jermaine and jermaine certainly isnt going to say anything against his old mate 'Arry. Im not saying defoe was great today, because he wasnt, but with crouch beside him he could have been much more dangerous.

Now Im a fan of Keane. But im also a fan of not playing players if they arent performing. Defoe is scoring goals and crouch has proved himself to be a problem when he has came on. It was the most sensible and most logical thing to do.

I agree with with post that Harry should be questioned after this game. That should be one of the questions. Why did you start Robbie Keane up front today with Jermain Defoe?

By the way Tom Huddlestone. Found out. BAD ONE.

[choda]

Im sorry...what? Robbie Keane can still make us tick? Im sorry but robbie keane did not make us tick. We should not be building our team around Robbie Keane. Robbie keane was ****ing shite today lad. And he was shite against United. The only thing he did today was almost winning a penalty.

I said on this very forum after the united game that Redknapp has to show a bit of balls and drop keane against chelsea. Defoe is scoring goals and crouch has been dangerous every time he has came on for us. All he had to do was start crouch and defoe up front and play with a solid midfield preferably with kranjcar on the left. Keane and defoe up front was NEVER EVER going to work. As soon as crouch came on today he created chances and proved to be a problem. Defoe has been our consistent goal scorer this season and when redknapp finally realised that crouch should be playing who did he take off? Defoe. Surprise, surprise. Why? Because old 'arry knows jermaine and jermaine certainly isnt going to say anything against his old mate 'Arry. Im not saying defoe was great today, because he wasnt, but with crouch beside him he could have been much more dangerous.

Now Im a fan of Keane. But im also a fan of not playing players if they arent performing. Defoe is scoring goals and crouch has proved himself to be a problem when he has came on. It was the most sensible and most logical thing to do.

I agree with with post that Harry should be questioned after this game. That should be one of the questions. Why did you start Robbie Keane up front today with Jermain Defoe?

By the way Tom Huddlestone. Found out. BAD ONE.

Well you take out Robbie Keane and you see how we do as a team when he's not bringing the moves together. He was good today, I don't know how you can say that he wasn't. It wasn't easy for any of them but he was certainly doing his bit. Defoe wasn't in the game, his movement was poor and missed a good chance.

Keane and Defoe has worked this year, very well in fact. See all the games we won. That was not really the problem today, the problem was a trying to play it down the middle against a team that plays a diamond. Even if you had Ronaldo (the real one) and Pele up front the lack of room meant they were clutching at straws, especially the one right up front. But Keane did try and most of any good possession we had went through him.

Crouch fair play to him got more involved, like Keane, in trying to make an impact on the game. Defoe had an off day.

As for United well he played on the left. He's useless on the left, pure rubbish, can't play there. You can just write that off as a bad decision, which Harry has done.

I like Crouch but the importance of Keane to our quality of possession cannot be underestimated. You see what happens when Modric is missing, you double the pain if you take out Keane as well imo. We are so average going forward without a clever striker and keeping possesion which also prevents more attacks on our goal. We were mediocre going forward all last year til he came back. And were against United too and in years gone by when Keane and Berba were taken off in the same game or injured or out of position or what ever. It's no coincidence is what I am saying.

If you drop anyone it has to be Defoe, however unpalatable that might be, as Keane and one of them will get you more points over the season, a good deal more imo.

I'm not saying Keane is better than Defoe these days but he's the one that is crucial to making the team work.

And if the team doesn't work then people like Defoe don't get the chances to bury. On the floor Modric weaving, going through Keane, Defoe sharp and the three of them moving in tandem is this team at its best. Then bring on Crouch the great impact sub late on.

I'd say one of Harry's biggest successes in turning us around has been bringing back Keane and understanding how much influence he has on our good play. That, Palacios, turning around Ekotto, Dawson and giving us a proper organisation and work ethic without the ball I think go down as his great triumphs so far in the job.

I'll hold my hands up if Crouch and Defoe play as the front two and we still have the same quality of possession, I just don't see it being on the same level.

Keane is a key man for me, along with King, Wilson and Modric. That's the foundation in my eyes and only then do you get the real quality of Defoe and Lennon when the teams play is functioning in such a way to get them in positions to do their stuff.

[mjbmedia]

Keane playing isnt the problem, the guy is bloody good, its where hes being played thats the issue.
Its like we gotta play Robbie so we put him where he is less effective !
Not Robbies fault, he does his best there but it aint his natural game and when we have at least 2 more naturally left wingers it makes no sense to play Lennie up there with JD when Lennies been on fire as right winger!

Surely you dont experiment V Chelsea and Man U, V Preston in Carling Cup, yes maybe.

We lost , conceded 6 goals in two games against the 2 teams likely to contest the title, only scored 1 goal and over the 90 minutes we didnt compete.

As Chelsea fans said "Tottenham are back"! Funniest thing I heard from them muppets in ages

[Gino Ginelli]

Keane and Defoe should be our 1st choice strike force, and with goo dreason as they are both technically proficient, pacey footballers and natural finishers. I've been saying ever since Pleat signed JD that they complement each other well and can form an intelligent partnership a la Cole / Yorke. Unfortunately we've had years of this big man little man bullshit. Ok we'll let the Berbatov issue slide, that was 2 years of a bonafide genius playing for us, but he may as well have not existed now (He was a tad shite yesterday again wasn't he?) Anyway I digress...

Pav should also be the 3rd choice. Why? Because he's an international striker who is proven at the highest level and bagged 14 goals for us last season. Crouch is nothing special I'm telling you. Yeah he brings something different, causes problems in the box, yada yada. But as I was saying in the build up CB's like Terry and Vidic can cope with him all day long. Pav has better movement and is a more natural finisher.

It's not his fault but Crouch also affects the team play in two detrimental ways, and this could be seen for Liverpool, Engalnd and Pompey alike. First he gives the CB's and midfield the excuse to just lump it up to him and expect him to win it, which he generally doesn't. If he's actually better on the deck than in the air then what is the point in him, as we alone have 3 other forward players who all possess better close control and technical proficieny. Second, due to his physique he concedes alot more free-kicks than any other forward. like I said not his fault, but it's a problem that comes with him.

Did anyone see that interview with him where he was asked "if you were'nt a footballer, what do you think you would be?" Crouchy replies "probably a virgin". Lolol!

I digress again...

Anyway, is anyone really suprised that Harry is no more a tactical genius than Richard Keys? He has a sensible, steady away approach to his teams based on honest hard work and all that yeah. But he has always struggled against the big sides, never really out thought them, and as the season goes on his teams always tend to fade and he runs out of ideas. It proved to be his downfall at West Ham, and it's happened at Pompey as well.

Case in point, one season in the late 90's West Ham were flying, unbeaten and top of the league for 2 months. Then they faded badly and ended up mid table. Pompey as well in recent years (especially when they came up) absolutely flew out of the traps and stunned everyone for about 3 months. They ended 8th/9th I think.

See what I'm getting at? And Niko Krancjar (who is average let's admit, before he was linked we would have said that, and Pompey fans have always thought the same when he was there) for £2.5m won't be anything other than a bench warmer because to be honest Bentley, Gio and Bale are all better IMO. I smell something dodgy.

But this is all me of course :001_rolleyes:

[olly27]

Keane and Defoe should be our 1st choice strike force, and with goo dreason as they are both technically proficient, pacey footballers and natural finishers. I've been saying ever since Pleat signed JD that they complement each other well and can form an intelligent partnership a la Cole / Yorke. Unfortunately we've had years of this big man little man bullshit. Ok we'll let the Berbatov issue slide, that was 2 years of a bonafide genius playing for us, but he may as well have not existed now (He was a tad shite yesterday again wasn't he?) Anyway I digress...

Pav should also be the 3rd choice. Why? Because he's an international striker who is proven at the highest level and bagged 14 goals for us last season. Crouch is nothing special I'm telling you. Yeah he brings something different, causes problems in the box, yada yada. But as I was saying in the build up CB's like Terry and Vidic can cope with him all day long. Pav has better movement and is a more natural finisher.

It's not his fault but Crouch also affects the team play in two detrimental ways, and this could be seen for Liverpool, Engalnd and Pompey alike. First he gives the CB's and midfield the excuse to just lump it up to him and expect him to win it, which he generally doesn't. If he's actually better on the deck than in the air then what is the point in him, as we alone have 3 other forward players who all possess better close control and technical proficieny. Second, due to his physique he concedes alot more free-kicks than any other forward. like I said not his fault, but it's a problem that comes with him.

Did anyone see that interview with him where he was asked "if you were'nt a footballer, what do you think you would be?" Crouchy replies "probably a virgin". Lolol!

I digress again...

Anyway, is anyone really suprised that Harry is no more a tactical genius than Richard Keys? He has a sensible, steady away approach to his teams based on honest hard work and all that yeah. But he has always struggled against the big sides, never really out thought them, and as the season goes on his teams always tend to fade and he runs out of ideas. It proved to be his downfall at West Ham, and it's happened at Pompey as well.

Case in point, one season in the late 90's West Ham were flying, unbeaten and top of the league for 2 months. Then they faded badly and ended up mid table. Pompey as well in recent years (especially when they came up) absolutely flew out of the traps and stunned everyone for about 3 months. They ended 8th/9th I think.

See what I'm getting at? And Niko Krancjar (who is average let's admit, before he was linked we would have said that, and Pompey fans have always thought the same when he was there) for £2.5m won't be anything other than a bench warmer because to be honest Bentley, Gio and Bale are all better IMO. I smell something dodgy.

But this is all me of course :001_rolleyes:


Bit harsh on Crouch, but I know were your coming from. At least he provided a threat yesterday, I was pleased with Crouchy yesterday.

[Gino Ginelli]

Bit harsh on Crouch, but I know were your coming from. At least he provided a threat yesterday, I was pleased with Crouchy yesterday.

A threat yes. But not much of one.

[olly27]

A threat yes. But not much of one.

All second half there had been none until he came on. I was of the opinion that Keane had to start, even more so, as Modric is out. I am changing my opinion, without Modric we just dont look like penetrating...bar a wonder ball from Wilson yesterday. Lennon should of been directly planted on the right as usual. I think Defoe feeding off Crouch is the way to go at the moment.

As long as we can resist the temptation of the constant long ball I think it will work, and that can be drummed into them.

Keep it strong and competitive in the centre with Wilson and JJ, whilst arming the flanks. Ekotto is fastly turning into our most reliabile defender and defintely the best full back at the Club. Good going forward and very sound the other way. Put Gio infront of him, that could really work well. We have only seen Naughton in pre season - and he looked very good. He will get forward and support Lennon. Does Harry have enough confidence in him though, in the real defending side?

Use the flanks to get in behind and let Defoe feed off Crouchy. JJ and Wilson will work hard to protect our ravaged back line. Bring back Gomes, he will claim a lot of balls swinging in which Hudd and Corluka wont deal with - allbeit there may be a few errors of judgement.

[deadleyledley]

the system harry set was all wrong. you cant play palacios as a inside left midfielder. he should have played him in the middle and got hudd out there. i saw the reasoning behind this decision as he wanted hudd to be the "quaterback". i think that he should have gone 343 and played crouchy in the middle as he had an instant impact. with keane and gio either side. defoe wasn't up to pace and therefore he wasn't a handful for terry. on the other hand keane was running rings round carvalho who blatantly tripped hi in the box. the defence was very bad. once ledley went the defence crumbled. then bassong went and there was a recipe for disaster.

harrys substitutions will have to come under question again. the first was very obvious. at 1-0 ledley went down so it was the perfect time to bring crouchy on. he decided for the infamous hutton who is a liability. if he wanted a right back then he should have gone for naughton who is better attacking wise and about the same defensively. defoe wasn't up to scratch but still needed a goal so he should have brought on crouch and left defoe on and taken off one of the cetral midfielders. kranjcar is a waste of time. he doesnt provide anything different to what bentley provides. i would have brought on gio,crouchy and naughton.

if harry can setup the correct system and use one of his 50 million advisors then he wouldnt have as many problems during the game.

[choda]

Keane and Defoe should be our 1st choice strike force, and with goo dreason as they are both technically proficient, pacey footballers and natural finishers. I've been saying ever since Pleat signed JD that they complement each other well and can form an intelligent partnership a la Cole / Yorke. Unfortunately we've had years of this big man little man bullshit. Ok we'll let the Berbatov issue slide, that was 2 years of a bonafide genius playing for us, but he may as well have not existed now (He was a tad shite yesterday again wasn't he?) Anyway I digress...

Pav should also be the 3rd choice. Why? Because he's an international striker who is proven at the highest level and bagged 14 goals for us last season. Crouch is nothing special I'm telling you. Yeah he brings something different, causes problems in the box, yada yada. But as I was saying in the build up CB's like Terry and Vidic can cope with him all day long. Pav has better movement and is a more natural finisher.

It's not his fault but Crouch also affects the team play in two detrimental ways, and this could be seen for Liverpool, Engalnd and Pompey alike. First he gives the CB's and midfield the excuse to just lump it up to him and expect him to win it, which he generally doesn't. If he's actually better on the deck than in the air then what is the point in him, as we alone have 3 other forward players who all possess better close control and technical proficieny. Second, due to his physique he concedes alot more free-kicks than any other forward. like I said not his fault, but it's a problem that comes with him.

Did anyone see that interview with him where he was asked "if you were'nt a footballer, what do you think you would be?" Crouchy replies "probably a virgin". Lolol!

I digress again...

Anyway, is anyone really suprised that Harry is no more a tactical genius than Richard Keys? He has a sensible, steady away approach to his teams based on honest hard work and all that yeah. But he has always struggled against the big sides, never really out thought them, and as the season goes on his teams always tend to fade and he runs out of ideas. It proved to be his downfall at West Ham, and it's happened at Pompey as well.

Case in point, one season in the late 90's West Ham were flying, unbeaten and top of the league for 2 months. Then they faded badly and ended up mid table. Pompey as well in recent years (especially when they came up) absolutely flew out of the traps and stunned everyone for about 3 months. They ended 8th/9th I think.

See what I'm getting at? And Niko Krancjar (who is average let's admit, before he was linked we would have said that, and Pompey fans have always thought the same when he was there) for £2.5m won't be anything other than a bench warmer because to be honest Bentley, Gio and Bale are all better IMO. I smell something dodgy.

But this is all me of course :001_rolleyes:

Well in defence of Crouch what he brings is a big physical presence with good technique. You are saying he's not as technically proficient, but I think he is good technically just in a different way as he can hold the ball up like a big target man and he's good at linking up, he is clever. And he's dangerous on crosses into the box that he can attack (not aimless punts and hopeful floaters).

But I see what you are saying in the fact that he's not mobile, he's a bit longshanked at times (for want of a better phrase) and lacks the brilliance of a Keane or the explosiveness of a Defoe. I'd play him over Pav every day of the week given what Pav brought last year though.

I think over his career Crouchie has always been a great plan B. For what ever reason when he comes off the bench he seems to be more effective than when he starts (maybe that can be said of many big strikers).

I don't he's better overall than Keane-Defoe, so I wouldn't start him but I like his impact off the bench and he can play if one is injured or could do with a rest.